The Instigator
Haytham
Pro (for)
The Contender
zapshe
Con (against)

Astronomy, Philosophy & Dictionary agree with The Holy Quran.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/4/2020 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 187 times Debate No: 123794
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Haytham

Pro

In The Name of Allah, The Entirely Merciful, The Especially Merciful

This argument is an attempt to link a few quotations from a documentary titled as “How the universe works” with English dictionary and The Holy Quran.

Narrator: There’s a hidden structure, A force that exists within space, A force that connects everything in our universe. This force underpins our reality (space and time) since the very beginning, And it controls our past, Present and our future, We call this force space-time.

Hakeem Oluseyi (Astrophysicist): we wish we know what space-time really is, But we don’t, We know things about space-time, But at the same time we feel like we know nothing about space-time.

The word underpin according to dictionary means to give support, Strength, Or a basic structure to something to develop, One of the closest synonyms of this word is the word sustain, Which means to keep or to maintain something in operation, And one of the attributes of Allah (The God) in Quran is The Sustainer:

2:255 Allah - there is no deity except Him, The Ever-Living, The Sustainer of [all] existence. . .

Sean Carroll (Theoretical physicist): space-time is a part of the fundamental architecture of our universe.

Architecture according to dictionary is the art and practice of designing and making buildings, Which means no architecture or a building can exist without the effort of an experienced designer or a maker, And God is mentioned in Quran as The Designer, The Originator, The Maker, The constructor:

36:81. . . Certainly. He is the Supreme All-Knowing Creator

6:101 [He is the] Originator of the heavens and the earth. . .

51:47 We constructed the heaven with power, And We are expanding it.


Narrator: when BigBang happened; the universe suddenly came to existence.

The word sudden according to dictionary is the moment when something happens unexpectedly and without a previous warning, And the word happen itself simply means to take place, To occur or to come to be, Which requires the existence of two different phases; the first one is the previous phase that comes before the moment of the sudden happening, And then a second phase begins at the moment of the sudden happening.

For example we say: “This person had a sudden heart attack”, This means there was a previous time before that sudden moment when this person was not having a heart attack, And then the heart attack happened, And a new phase of suffering begins with the happening of the heart attack.

According to astronomy; BigBang happened suddenly, This means there has to be an initial phase before BigBang, Then BigBang suddenly happened, And this incident initiated a new phase (The existence of our universe).

Based on this; time did not start with BigBang.

The definition of Time according to oxford is the indefinite continued progress of existence and events in the past, Present, And future regarded as a whole, And since BigBang is defined as a sudden event that happened 13. 8 billion years ago, This means time by definition cannot start with BigBang because time should be an indefinite continued progress of existence, Which means eternity is the actual timeline of existence, And BigBang is just another event that happened at a certain point in the past of this eternal timeline.

There are three potential fates of the universe and each one of them leads to its death (Considering the fact that dark energy is completely unpredictable concerning the possibility of an infinite expansion), So after the death of the universe it would mean that our universe existed only for a certain period of time, 30 billion years for example, This would mean that our universe was born at BigBang, Existed for 30 billion years, And then died, Since time by definition should be eternal; this means those 30 billion years represent a finite period of time from an eternal timeline that has no beginning and no end.

As mentioned above; the existence of our universe requires the existence of its Architect, So The Architect of the universe has to be The Initiator of BigBang 13. 8 billion years ago, This means when BigBang happened The Architect of the universe was already existing, And because time by definition is eternal then The Architect of the universe has to be Eternal as well, And God in Quran defines Himself as The Eternal, The Everlasting, The First and The Last:

2:255 Allah! There is no god except He, The Ever Living, The Everlasting. . .

57:3 He is The First and The Last, The Ascendant and the Intimate, And He is, Of all things, Knowing.

One may argue that The Architect of our universe could have come to existence at some point of the eternal existence, Which means He doesn’t have to be Eternal, And thus He cannot be Unique, And other previous gods could come to the eternal existence at some point before Him, But every finite existence requires a necessary existence (See the argument from contingency), God should be The necessary being Who sustains every finite existence, Thus, God is Eternal, Hence He is Unique, Exactly as mentioned in Quran:

112:1 Say, "He is Allah, The One and Only.


112:2 Allah, The Eternal Refuge


112:3 He begets not, Nor was He begotten.


112:4 And there is none comparable to Him. "

Narrator: In a fraction of a second, The universe grew from smaller than the size of an atom to the size of a baseball.

James Bullock (Astrophysicist): at the moment of BigBang, Space-time was an entity that was flying out in all directions.

And this is exactly how Allah describes BigBang:

21:30 Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, And We separated them and made from water every living thing?

Allah uses the expression “The heavens and the earth” to deliver the meaning of the Earth and everything above the earth, Or what we call today the universe, God uses this kind of simple expressions in Quran to describe our physical reality to all kinds of people from the past, Present and the future.

(Physicists today use the same approach to describe physical facts to ordinary people).

Michelle Thaller (Astronomer): The universe at the instant of inflation, Expanded faster than the speed of light, This seems like a violation of all the foundations of physics given the fact that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light through our universe.

Hakeem Oluseyi (Astrophysicist): The rule is, Nothing can move through the universe faster than the speed of light, But the BigBang inflation is the space itself expanded faster than the speed of light, So there’s no violation of physics and there’s no paradox.

This means the laws of physics as we know can only be applied inside our finite universe, This classifies the BigBang inflation as a supernatural incident, Which means God as The Initiator of BigBang should be Supernatural, According to Cambridge dictionary; this means God is beyond scientific understanding, And God is beyond the laws of nature, Which also means that God is absolutely independent from these laws and does not subject to any of them, And our universe cannot contain God.

All these attributes are mentioned in Quran, Allah defines Himself in many verses as The All-Powerful, The Greatest, The Independent, The Self-Sufficient, The Magnificent.

Narrator: During the inflation of the early space-time, Some areas became higher dense than other areas, And these higher dense regions were becoming larger, Which eventually allowed the universe to take shape

To take shape according to dictionary means to develop a clearer or a more certain form, And develop means to cause something to grow or change into a more advanced form.

Based on dictionary and the causality principle; Nothing can grow or take shape from nothing, We can’t have a shape without an initial cause that can shape something from something else (whether randomly or willingly), Thus, Nothing can be shaped unless there was an initial cause that caused BigBang to happen at the first place, And as a result caused the universe to take shape, So it is impossible for the universe to be developed or “to take shape” without God sustaining and shaping the universe since BigBang.

Michelle Thaller (Astronomer): And all of the sudden, things started to come together.

Things started to come together is the actual result of the verb to arrange or to organize, And according to dictionary both of the words mean to put a group of objects in a particular order, Or to make the necessary plans for something to happen, This requires the inevitable existence of a conscious and an intelligent arranger or organizer to prepare those plans and arrangements at the first place, And God according to Quran is Arranging everything happens in the universe:

10:3 Indeed, Your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days and then established Himself above the Throne, arranging the matter [of His creation]. . .

13:2. . . He arranges [each] matter; He details the signs; that you may - of the meeting with your Lord - be certain.

Narrator: Our modern universe is a complex mosaic of matter

A mosaic according the dictionary means a pattern or picture produced by arranging together small pieces of different ingredients, Which again implies the need of an experienced arranger or a producer of this mosaic of matter, God.

Narrator: The universe is organized by a cosmic architect, Space-time, It shaped everything, From planets to galaxies.

Space-time is behaving according to a precise set of physical laws that govern our universe, If BigBang happened from nothing then how can “nothing” generates a space-time that behaves like an architect which (inevitably) has to be an intelligent and a skilled architect to be able to produce such a majestic “mosaic of matter”?

zapshe

Con

Since you challenged me and used the same argument, I'll give you the same response:

"This opening argument is an attempt to link different statements from a documentary titled as "How the universe works" with English dictionary and The Holy Quran. "

How many ways are there to interpret something like the Quran? Especially considering your claim that it isn't a "science" book? The answer is a lot. Therefore, Being able to "link" the Quran's statements with really anything is child's play. Whether it be modern science or even sci-fi - you could find a way to make it seem like the Quran has spoken of these things. For example:

Alien spaceships. I just said what came to mind. If I wanted to say that the Quran talks about them, I could find MANY verses that I could twist in interpretation and make believe it talked about them. One such verse would be:

(42:29) "Among His (God's) signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, And the living creatures that He has scattered through them :and He has power to gather them together when He wills. ""

Even though it seems to only speak of living creatures spread on EARTH, It can be also interpreted to mean throughout the "heavens" or universe. This kind of open-ended kind of verses only exist because the author didn't want his book to be falsifiable. When multiple interpretations exist, And one widely accepted interpretation gives way to another when science advances, There's no way to falsify to Quran in the minds of those who're brainwashed.

"we wish we know what space-time really is, But we don"t, We know things about space-time, But at the same time we feel like we know nothing about space-time. "

This is because we don't understand the fundamental nature of space-time. What IS it? What makes space. . . Space? These are the questions without an answer. What you tried to answer with the verse has nothing to do with this.

"This means God is necessary being Who sustains every finite existence, Thus, God is Eternal, So God is Unique"

That's not at all what anything you said means. Understand that the universe doesn't care about what seems logical to you. Without evidence, You can't possibly make this claim. All you did was try to use logic that seems reasonable to you in order to make an unbacked assertion. What if there is literally no reasoning beyond our universe, And everything that can happen does happen - which means our universe is just one of infinitely many? That seems logical to, Only there's no evidence so I don't say I've proven something or disproven others.

"112:1 Say, "He is Allah, The One.

112:2 Allah, The Eternal Refuge

112:3 He begets not, Nor was He begotten.

112:4 And there is none comparable to Him. ""

These are all classic lines in many religions. All you did was to try and make it seem like it means more than intended.

"This is exactly how God describes BigBang in Quran:

21:30 Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, And We separated them and made from water every living thing? "

How does that "exactly" describe it? I'd argue it better described me eating french toast.

"The Earth and everything above the Earth, Means the universe, This kind of simple expressions in Quran is needed to describe the physical reality to the people of the 7th century. "

So when the Quran is clearly wrong, It's because it's not a science book and is to described the universe to people thousands of years ago. So tell me, WHAT could possibly be written in the Quran that would disprove it? MAKE UP SOMETHING that if you were to find in the Quran would make you stop believing in it's validity (meaning it doesn't actually have to be in it).

"This means the laws of physics of our universe can only be applied inside our universe"

Why "ONLY"?

"Which classifies the event of the BigBang inflation as a supernatural incident"

Even if it was against the laws of physics in our universe, It wouldn't be supernatural since these laws don't apply in the area where it started in your mind. Moreover, It wouldn't imply that God did it because supernatural could also just as easily be the many universe theory I presented before.

"The conclusion is that God is absolutely independent from any laws of physics that govern our universe, Which also means that our universe cannot contain God. "

So God is limited to not being able to reside within our universe? Moreover, Nothing you said is justified. Just BS piled on more BS.

"All these attributes of God are mentioned in Quran, Allah defines Himself in many verses from Quran as The Greatest, The All-Powerful, The Independent, The Self-Sufficient. "

As well as many other religions. These are standard attributes, Not anything that reveals deeper meaning.

"So it is impossible for the universe to be developed or "to take shape" without God as The necessary being Who is sustaining and shaping the universe since BigBang. "

How did you even get to this conclusion?

"Things started to come together. "

WAY out of context.

"the universe is organized by a cosmic architect, Space-time, It shaped everything, From planets to galaxies. "

Where did you get this? This is not accurate.
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