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The Instigator
Haytham
Pro (for)
The Contender
Yoshikage69Kira
Con (against)

Astronomy, Philosophy & Dictionary agree with The Holy Quran

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/3/2020 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 231 times Debate No: 123792
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (6)
Votes (0)

 

Haytham

Pro

In The Name of Allah, The Entirely Merciful, The Especially Merciful

This argument is an attempt to link a few quotations from a documentary titled as “How the universe works” with English dictionary and The Holy Quran.

Narrator: There’s a hidden structure, A force that exists within space, A force that connects everything in our universe. This force underpins our reality (space and time) since the very beginning, And it controls our past, Present and our future, We call this force space-time.

Hakeem Oluseyi (Astrophysicist): we wish we know what space-time really is, But we don’t, We know things about space-time, But at the same time we feel like we know nothing about space-time.

The word underpin according to dictionary means to give support, Strength, Or a basic structure to something to develop, One of the closest synonyms of this word is the word sustain, Which means to keep or to maintain something in operation, And one of the attributes of Allah (The God) in Quran is The Sustainer:

2:255 Allah - there is no deity except Him, The Ever-Living, The Sustainer of [all] existence. . .

Sean Carroll (Theoretical physicist): space-time is a part of the fundamental architecture of our universe.

Architecture according to dictionary is the art and practice of designing and making buildings, Which means no architecture or a building can exist without the effort of an experienced designer or a maker, And God is mentioned in Quran as The Designer, The Originator, The Maker, The constructor:

36:81. . . Certainly. He is the Supreme All-Knowing Creator

6:101 [He is the] Originator of the heavens and the earth. . .

51:47 We constructed the heaven with power, And We are expanding it.


Narrator: when BigBang happened; the universe suddenly came to existence.

The word sudden according to dictionary is the moment when something happens unexpectedly and without a previous warning, And the word happen itself simply means to take place, To occur or to come to be, Which requires the existence of two different phases; the first one is the previous phase that comes before the moment of the sudden happening, And then a second phase begins at the moment of the sudden happening.

For example we say: “This person had a sudden heart attack”, This means there was a previous time before that sudden moment when this person was not having a heart attack, And then the heart attack happened, And a new phase of suffering begins with the happening of the heart attack.

According to astronomy; BigBang happened suddenly, This means there has to be an initial phase before BigBang, Then BigBang suddenly happened, And this incident initiated a new phase (The existence of our universe).

Based on this; time did not start with BigBang.

The definition of Time according to oxford is the indefinite continued progress of existence and events in the past, Present, And future regarded as a whole, And since BigBang is defined as a sudden event that happened 13. 8 billion years ago, This means time by definition cannot start with BigBang because time should be an indefinite continued progress of existence, Which means eternity is the actual timeline of existence, And BigBang is just another event that happened at a certain point in the past of this eternal timeline.

There are three potential fates of the universe and each one of them leads to its death (Considering the fact that dark energy is completely unpredictable concerning the possibility of an infinite expansion), So after the death of the universe it would mean that our universe existed only for a certain period of time, 30 billion years for example, This would mean that our universe was born at BigBang, Existed for 30 billion years, And then died, Since time by definition should be eternal; this means those 30 billion years represent a finite period of time from an eternal timeline that has no beginning and no end.

As mentioned above; the existence of our universe requires the existence of its Architect, So The Architect of the universe has to be The Initiator of BigBang 13. 8 billion years ago, This means when BigBang happened The Architect of the universe was already existing, And because time by definition is eternal then The Architect of the universe has to be Eternal as well, And God in Quran defines Himself as The Eternal, The Everlasting, The First and The Last:

2:255 Allah! There is no god except He, The Ever Living, The Everlasting. . .

57:3 He is The First and The Last, The Ascendant and the Intimate, And He is, Of all things, Knowing.

One may argue that The Architect of our universe could have come to existence at some point of the eternal existence, Which means He doesn’t have to be Eternal, And thus He cannot be Unique, And other previous gods could come to the eternal existence at some point before Him, But every finite existence requires a necessary existence (See the argument from contingency), God should be The necessary being Who sustains every finite existence, Thus, God is Eternal, Hence He is Unique, Exactly as mentioned in Quran:

112:1 Say, "He is Allah, The One and Only.


112:2 Allah, The Eternal Refuge


112:3 He begets not, Nor was He begotten.


112:4 And there is none comparable to Him. "

Narrator: In a fraction of a second, The universe grew from smaller than the size of an atom to the size of a baseball.

James Bullock (Astrophysicist): at the moment of BigBang, Space-time was an entity that was flying out in all directions.

And this is exactly how Allah describes BigBang:

21:30 Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, And We separated them and made from water every living thing?

Allah uses the expression “The heavens and the earth” to deliver the meaning of the Earth and everything above the earth, Or what we call today the universe, God uses this kind of simple expressions in Quran to describe our physical reality to all kinds of people from the past, Present and the future.

(Physicists today use the same approach to describe physical facts to ordinary people).

Michelle Thaller (Astronomer): The universe at the instant of inflation, Expanded faster than the speed of light, This seems like a violation of all the foundations of physics given the fact that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light through our universe.

Hakeem Oluseyi (Astrophysicist): The rule is, Nothing can move through the universe faster than the speed of light, But the BigBang inflation is the space itself expanded faster than the speed of light, So there’s no violation of physics and there’s no paradox.

This means the laws of physics as we know can only be applied inside our finite universe, This classifies the BigBang inflation as a supernatural incident, Which means God as The Initiator of BigBang should be Supernatural, According to Cambridge dictionary; this means God is beyond scientific understanding, And God is beyond the laws of nature, Which also means that God is absolutely independent from these laws and does not subject to any of them, And our universe cannot contain God.

All these attributes are mentioned in Quran, Allah defines Himself in many verses as The All-Powerful, The Greatest, The Independent, The Self-Sufficient, The Magnificent.

Narrator: During the inflation of the early space-time, Some areas became higher dense than other areas, And these higher dense regions were becoming larger, Which eventually allowed the universe to take shape

To take shape according to dictionary means to develop a clearer or a more certain form, And develop means to cause something to grow or change into a more advanced form.

Based on dictionary and the causality principle; Nothing can grow or take shape from nothing, We can’t have a shape without an initial cause that can shape something from something else (whether randomly or willingly), Thus, Nothing can be shaped unless there was an initial cause that caused BigBang to happen at the first place, And as a result caused the universe to take shape, So it is impossible for the universe to be developed or “to take shape” without God sustaining and shaping the universe since BigBang.

Michelle Thaller (Astronomer): And all of the sudden, things started to come together.

Things started to come together is the actual result of the verb to arrange or to organize, And according to dictionary both of the words mean to put a group of objects in a particular order, Or to make the necessary plans for something to happen, This requires the inevitable existence of a conscious and an intelligent arranger or organizer to prepare those plans and arrangements at the first place, And God according to Quran is Arranging everything happens in the universe:

10:3 Indeed, Your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days and then established Himself above the Throne, arranging the matter [of His creation]. . .

13:2. . . He arranges [each] matter; He details the signs; that you may - of the meeting with your Lord - be certain.

Narrator: Our modern universe is a complex mosaic of matter

A mosaic according the dictionary means a pattern or picture produced by arranging together small pieces of different ingredients, Which again implies the need of an experienced arranger or a producer of this mosaic of matter, God.

Narrator: The universe is organized by a cosmic architect, Space-time, It shaped everything, From planets to galaxies.

Space-time is behaving according to a precise set of physical laws that govern our universe, If BigBang happened from nothing then how can “nothing” generates a space-time that behaves like an architect which (inevitably) has to be an intelligent and a skilled architect to be able to produce such a majestic “mosaic of matter”?

Yoshikage69Kira

Con

Doesn't the quran say that when it's nighttime the sun is in a swamp.
Debate Round No. 1
Haytham

Pro

In The Name of Allah, The Entirely Merciful, The Especially Merciful

Quran 18:86 Until, When he reached the setting of the sun, He found it [as if] setting in a spring of dark mud. . .

God is using a metaphoric description here, Not a real description of the sunset, "he found it [as if] setting", God is describing the view of the sunset that appeared in the eyes of Zul Karnayn that's all.
Yoshikage69Kira

Con

Alright, Is their a way of telling when the Quran is being literal or not?
Debate Round No. 2
Haytham

Pro

In The Name of Allah, The Entirely Merciful, The Especially Merciful

"Is their a way of telling when the Quran is being literal or not? "

Depending on the context and on how grammar works, Especially in classical Arabic because it is the original language of Quran.

why Arabic?

The root system found within Arabic language and Semitic languages as a whole has been described as "one of the great miracles of man"s language" [1], It is a logical and a mathematical word structure which makes Arabic one of the easiest and most enjoyable langues to learn.

The availability of many translations of The Holy Quran can safely deliver the full meaning of the verses, And the consulting all these diverse translations with the consulting all the Tafsirs of the Holy Quran can vastly deliver the meanings of verses based on the meaning of other verses from Holy Quran, And in some cases, Based on (exclusively) authentic Hadiths of the Prophet (pbuh).

Sources:
[1] A Reference Grammar of Modern Standard Arabic by Karin C. Ryding, Page 44.
Yoshikage69Kira

Con

Alright, I'll pick up a copy and develop my own opinion.
Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
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Debate Round No. 5
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by anc2006 2 years ago
anc2006
Pro is better. Con, Dust off your hands and do something better.
Posted by backwardseden 2 years ago
backwardseden
See you cannot even prove a god, And in fact, Nobody can. So its not a "preference". Would you like to try again sparky? And this time put a little more ummmppphhh into your response with just a little bit of correctness? Nah. You've not one time been able to do that because "I don't know" never scratches your you know where areas. You ---always--- have the answers which make you demonic in every single way which is why NO ONE of merit respects a single word you say, No one. You will ---never--- take your stupid glutton ideals to ---any--- scientific community of merit from around the world and see if they will read them, And thus get a passing grade because you 100% know damn well that they won't.
Oh I get it, Since there, According to you are not OBSERVABLE evidence, We are to take YOUR word and thus scrap all thinking, Reasoning, Rationalizing, Common sense and logical knowledge for what YOU say? Because what YOU say is correct when YOU can prove god damned thing and YOUR interpretations are clearly 100% false and incorrect in which case NOBODY of merit will agree with YOU because no idiot unproven character storybook god of print only would ever be stupid enough to use text, Namely YOUR quran, The worst form of communication, Advertisement, Correspondence, The worst possible form of communication, Advertisement, Correspondence TO A GOD? Why is it that atheists can figure this out and YOU can't? After all, Your quran has only been translated into 114 languages and there are over 6500 languages so according to YOU, No exceptions, None, YOUR unproven character storybook god of print only is oh let's say extremely limited and bound by your quran and cannot move beyond it whereas atheists can easily figure out that this if proven god of yours can move beyond the quran and thus talk to every single man woman and child but according to you, Um nope. So the question remains. . . Why are you such an idiot with no genuine friends or loved ones and deservedly so?
Posted by Haytham 2 years ago
Haytham
@ backwardseden

Let me tell you and the likes of you something, You people prefer "i don't know" over "God did it " not because you want an OBSERVABLE evidence but you people are arrogant, You think you can decide what God should do and what God shouldn't do, You are so sure that there's no God but you're not sure how BigBang happened at the first place, You're not sure how and why the universe is expanding, But you're ALWAYS sure that God doesn't exist, You people are contradicting with yourselves, You don't want to accept God because it doesn't suit your arrogance.

The likes of me speak out of facts but the likes of you speak out of ignorance, The likes of you will be ALWAYS trying to silence the truth, But here's what is going to happen:

Quran 61:8 They want to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths, But Allah will perfect His light, Although the disbelievers dislike it.

Instead of sharing empty comments I'm challenging anyone here to accept this debate and share some meaningful HONEST details so we can discuss like civilized human beings not like filthy savages.
Posted by backwardseden 2 years ago
backwardseden
"One of the great challenges of the world is to think you"re right, But not enough about the subject to know you're wrong. " Neil DeGrasse Tyson. He"s right.

"Assume that we have no answer. Then the answer is "I don"t know". The answer isn"t "I can"t think of anything better, Therefore a god did it. ""Matt Dillahunty
That's what you ---always--- think is that a god did it. "I don't know" ---never--- pops into your mind. Until "I don't know" does and is the correct and only answer because you don't know everything like you pretend that you do, You will never be genuinely respected or cared about. I guess you want it that way.
Posted by Haytham 2 years ago
Haytham
"Haytham I see you as a mind-set believer. The believer is mind-set in that the believer can not think enough to question what he believes. "

Already done that, And now I"m convinced by the grace and the help of Our Lord, That I"m on the right path, I have searched and compared and concluded, Quran also discourages blind beliefs, Allah invites mankind to observe and rationalize before believing in anything.

"A question is the highest form of thought. When a believer believes, His or her mind eagerly accepts anything that pretends to support their mind-set belief while automatically shutting out and discarding anything that disproves their mind-set belief"

Disprove me wrong then, I believe Quran is the word of God because Quran is the only perfect Holy Scripture on earth, Quran is the only holy book that passes all kinds of tests, If you want to have an honest debate about this I"m ready for that.

"But even if the mind-set believer does discover the truth, Being mind-set, He or she, Cannot accept the truth. "

What is the truth that you are talking about? Let us have a decent debate so we can share details.

"Understanding is an intellectual process. Acceptance is an emotional process. Believing is mostly will-programmed emotion. Unrealistic belief proves that a high percentage of stupid is stubborn. "

"Mostly" is not enough to judge Quran. You talk on no basis, With no specifications.

"Belief: "I believe" always means "I don't know". If someone absolutely knows, He or she would claim to know. Why would a thinking person buy into another's "I don't knows"? "

Scientists "don"t know" what space-time really is, According to you scientific method is on the wrong path as well.
Posted by missmedic 2 years ago
missmedic
Haytham I see you as a mind-set believer. The believer is mind-set in that the believer can not think enough to question what he believes. A question is the highest form of thought. When a believer believes, His or her mind eagerly accepts anything that pretends to support their mind-set belief while automatically shutting out and discarding anything that disproves their mind-set belief. But even if the mind-set believer does discover the truth, Being mind-set, He or she, Cannot accept the truth.
Understanding is an intellectual process. Acceptance is an emotional process. Believing is mostly will-programmed emotion. Unrealistic belief proves that a high percentage of stupid is stubborn.
Belief: "I believe" always means "I don't know". If someone absolutely knows, He or she would claim to know. Why would a thinking person buy into another's "I don't knows"?
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