The Instigator
Zyzml
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
MrMaestro
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

Gender and Sex are interchangeable

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
MrMaestro
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/27/2019 Category: Society
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 586 times Debate No: 121051
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (12)
Votes (1)

 

Zyzml

Pro

I'd like to start of this debate by saying that this is my first debate here, Or ever. This is a completely new experience for me, And i'm excited to try it out. I'm 16, Naive, And I don't know a lot, But i'm not asking you to go easy on me, I'm here to learn and improve.

With that being said, Let's debate.

The way people use the term 'gender' nowadays is incorrect. It is interchangeable with the term 'sex'. The world people are looking for is 'personality'. You cannot "feel" like a certain sex, You ARE what sex you were assigned to at birth.
MrMaestro

Con

Hello Zyzml and welcome to debate. Org!

The American Psychological Association defines gender as:

"The attitudes, Feelings, And behaviors that a given culture associates with a person's biological sex. Behavior that is compatible with cultural expectations referred to as gender-normative; behaviors that are viewed as incompatible with these expectations constitute gender non-conformity". [1]

So first of all, The definition HAS changed, And people are using the word correctly. But I don't want to argue IF it has changed, I want to argue WHY it changed.

---

I have three questions for my opponent:

Question 1
If someone undergoes gender reassignment surgery, Would you say their Gender changed? Is it possible for someone's Gender to not match their biological sex?

-If yes, Then Gender is not interchangeable with biological sex.
-If no, Then how are trans people supposed to identify themselves?

Question 2
What about intersex people? Not everyone is born strictly male or female. Why should we force them to pick one or the other? What's wrong with saying they are non-binary, For example?

Question 3

Did you know that you can get laser eye surgery to change your eye color from brown to blue? So let me ask you, If I changed my eye color to blue, Would you insist on calling my eyes brown? After all, That's the color biology intended right?


[1] https://www. Apa. Org/pi/lgbt/resources/sexuality-definitions. Pdf
Debate Round No. 1
Zyzml

Pro

Question 1
If someone undergoes gender reassignment surgery, Would you say their Gender changed? Is it possible for someone's Gender to not match their biological sex?

-If yes, Then Gender is not interchangeable with biological sex.
-If no, Then how are trans people supposed to identify themselves?

A: No, To me it"s like wearing a costume. You can put on a female persona, But still not be a female.
Trans people can identify themselves however they"d like to, But when it comes down to the biology they are either male or female, Nothing in between.

Question 2
What about intersex people? Not everyone is born strictly male or female. Why should we force them to pick one or the other? What's wrong with saying they are non-binary, For example?

A: You are either born female or male, You"re assigned a sex at birth and it"s not something you can biologically change. If they don"t want to identify then so be it, They don"t have to. But in legal terms your sex is determined biologically.
If that doesn"t make sense, Please do tell. I"d be happy to elaborate more

Question 3

Did you know that you can get laser eye surgery to change your eye color from brown to blue? So let me ask you, If I changed my eye color to blue, Would you insist on calling my eyes brown? After all, That's the color biology intended right?

No, I did not know that. After undergoing this surgery, Is the genetic makeup completely altered, Or do you still have X colored eyes, But with the outside appearance of Y colored eyes?
If it has completely changed, Fair enough. But can we do that with our sex?
If not, Then my point still stands
MrMaestro

Con

So we both agree that:

1. People should be allowed to identify however they like.
2. That intersex people do exist, And not everyone is born purely male or female.
3. Biological sex does not change - even with surgery.
---

Your main argument seems to be that we shouldn't change the word gender because it's linked to biological sex. Let's go back to the eye color analogy for a second. There's a problem with your logic.

a) We shouldn't call a trans-woman a woman, because their DNA says they are a man
b) We should call a blue-eyed person's eyes blue, despite their DNA saying their eye color should be brown.

Let me propose another analogy. What if you could change our height? Would you refuse to say a 6' man is 6', Simply because he used to be 5'7" before surgery? That man's DNA and biology say he should be 5'7". So I ask you, How tall is he?

Body modifications are a rapidly advancing field of research. In just a few decades we might be able to change our eyes, Height, Skin color, You name it. Will you still be so stringent about biology then?
---

My second argument is that words are allowed to change.

Here are some other words that got redefined over time: [2]
-"Girl" once meant a young child of either sex. 
-"Naughty" used to mean poor people. Because they 'Had Naught'
-"Egregious" used to mean something outrageously good - it now means the opposite.


Words and concepts change all the time because they are a societal construct. The word "Gender" means whatever society deems it to mean. Right now, That meaning is not the same meaning as "Biological Sex".

[2]http://mentalfloss. Com/article/61876/11-words-meanings-have-changed-drastically-over-time

Debate Round No. 2
Zyzml

Pro

Okay, Fair enough. I concede
MrMaestro

Con

I respect that you kept an open mind! Thanks for the debate Zyzml.

Uhmm. . . Vote Con I guess. Lol
Debate Round No. 3
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Parsifal 2 years ago
Parsifal
The problem here is that if you assume sex and gender are different than how do you empirically verify the validity of such claims? How do you falsify it? If someone were to say "My gender is woman" - how do you know that they're telling the truth? What experiment, Test or procedure would you perform to independently uncover the truth?

When you get down to it, You can't. It becomes a matter of faith. And faith lacks evidence.
Posted by Thoht 3 years ago
Thoht
@wrick

The whole bit I wrote was predicated on an "if" statement. I wasn't assuming anything as far as what you believe, But if you do believe in only one set of expectations for everyone there is no cognitive dissonance going on, Particularly when you don't test everyone you meet for chromosomes or feel up their genitals before assuming what sex they are or what gender they wish to be referred to as.

I too would like only one set of expectations for everyone. I don't believe it is that significant to know whether or not people produce small gametes or large gametes. Then again, I don't want children outside of adopting. I can see where it would be important for people who did want children, But it is emphasized to a silly degree in current day society.

So for people on one side of this question, Feminine males exist in society. For the other section of society, We simply refer to those people as women if they want. You can call them feminine males or whatever other name you choose if you want, But it's a moot issue. "Woman" isn't some sort of sacred term to me. Nor is "man. " Frankly, There are tons of women out there who are more of a 'man' than tons of men. It's not such a big deal to me unless they tell let their partners assume they can reproduce with them when they date. That's a huge problem for me. It would be a huge problem even for biological females who don't tell their partners they can't have children.
Posted by L.Ryuzaki 3 years ago
L.Ryuzaki
MrMastro:

This is in response to your statement, "Because lazy web developers (like me), Sometimes only add two options. Web developers are not the moral authority on this issue lol. Facebook, Tinder, And most modern dating apps offer many categories of gender. If you wanna have a proper debate feel free to challenge me! "

The point I am trying to make is why is it called gender? Wouldn't it be called sex? For some reason, Most people refer to sex as Male and Female. How come it is listed as Male and Female under gender? Because they are the same thing. Isn't gender "Man" and "Woman". Who else would be the moral authority then? I would think websites would be proof enough.

I will challenge you in approximately 12 hours or more. I am currently busy at the moment. Until we meet again.

- L
Posted by WrickItRalph 3 years ago
WrickItRalph
@MrMaestro. Indeed.

I mixed it up with the musical term, Which in music, Functions in the same way dissonance does. Too many music classes.
Posted by MrMaestro 3 years ago
MrMaestro
More info about they eye-color surgery: https://irexlaser. Com/
Note that it does not change your genetic makeup, And is considered quite safe.

@L. Ryuzaki
"if someone could explain how in many websites, Job applications, E-mail sites, Surveys, Anything you can think of on and off the internet -- why is it listed as "Male" and "Female" under the Gender option? "

Because lazy web developers (like me), Sometimes only add two options. Web developers are not the moral authority on this issue lol. Facebook, Tinder, And most modern dating apps offer many categories of gender. If you wanna have a proper debate feel free to challenge me!

@WrickItRalph
"when your identity is forcing us to live in cognitive dissidence (dissonance? ), That is where I draw the line. "

In my opinion, This is really the heart of the issue. This is the reason why changing other body parts doesn't offend people, But changing sex does. It can be argued that the cognitive dissonance you feel is defined by societal gender roles and expectations, Which are subject to change over time.
Posted by WrickItRalph 3 years ago
WrickItRalph
@thoht. I'm not arguing that there are only two kinds of people. I'm saying that genitals have nothing to do with the way a person acts. I'm saying there are infinite individuals and two genders. Intersex is not a gender per se but more like two genders combined. If you really want to push the issue, I suppose we could call it a gender. But I'd rather just go the other direction and destroy all the labels so we can all just be people. We could get rid of all the pronouns except for one as a place holder for language and only use Male and Female as medical terms. It's smarter than what people are doing now. Social constructs have become catalysts for prejudice and the people being hurt by it are convinced that more social constructs will help things. If we continue down this path, People will for "expectations" as you say about zhis and zhurs as well (Just putting it out there, I'm not well versed on alternative pronouns, Just guessing words here. )
Posted by WrickItRalph 3 years ago
WrickItRalph
@Thoht.

Well you just attributed a bunch of things to me that aren't true.

I don't think there should be two expectations, There should be one for all people.

All medical differences should be recognized if and only if it is necessary to do so. Most of this would have to do with birth related things, Of course.

I don't have a problem with boys wearing pinks dresses, So I'm not lying about anything. I can't help what other people falsely believe.
Posted by L.Ryuzaki 3 years ago
L.Ryuzaki
Hello, MrMaestro:

I would first like you to define societal construct and we shall go from there. From reading your argument from "Round 2" prompts my response.

You compared the following: eye color, Height, Skin color to gender and sex. Firstly, These things are already happening. Just because something changes does not make it right nor just.

Eye color surgery has many drawbacks as it is not safe. It can lead to blindness and the damaging of the eyes and vision. I do not know of a logical person who would go through that type of situation while especially knowing the repercussions.

I have nothing to say about height.

Skin color. . . . Interesting.

Words changing would be the simplest out of all of these examples presented. This is justified. But to compare all of these with gender/sex is not good. I will just say gender from here on out because gender and sex are in fact the same thing. Gender is much more intricate. You have a purpose as the gender you were born as. It's quite simple really. Reproduction. Is it possible for a male to obtain a uterus and have the ability to bear offspring? Is it possible for a woman to obtain a prostate and ejaculate semen? Let's please value DNA, Hormones, Testosterone, Estrogen, Science and biology. Let's please keep that in mind.

If gender and sex are different then I would be pleased if someone could explain how in many websites, Job applications, E-mail sites, Surveys, Anything you can think of on and off the internet -- why is it listed as "Male" and "Female" under the Gender option? By other people's definitions, Sex and gender are different. No, They are the same. There is no - if rarely any "Sex" questions anywhere. It all mostly says "Gender" whether it me male, Female, Man and woman. This very website asks for your gender.

Society must not conform to other peoples' feelings and convenience, It in turns results to unfairness and it results in lies, When we should all aim for the truth.

- L
Posted by Thoht 3 years ago
Thoht
If you use the terms feminine and masculine you are using gender roles just like anyone else.

Whether you like it or not, There are people who don't identify strongly with the expectations of 'boys' or 'girls', 'women' or 'men. '

You can't really give me an argument as to why there need be only two sets of expectations. The best you have are reproductive arguments, And not everyone can reproduce. Not everyone is even born with only one set of genitalia and not everyone has only XX or XY chromosomes. No matter how you put it, There are at least three or as many as infinite ways to be a person.

There are no arguments as to why sex and gender should mean the same thing. Until people don't have an expectation of what a 'girl' is and what a 'boy' is you have no point. Until boys can wear pink dresses with makeup on and not be somehow abnormal, You are using gender roles even if you don't admit it. Even if this IS normal to you in reality, Do you think it is for the majority of the population?

I doubt it.
Posted by WrickItRalph 3 years ago
WrickItRalph
@Thoht. Also, You said that the word gender has meanings that the term sex does not. This is not true. What you're thinking about is gender roles, Which is a social construct that I don't support.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Thoht 3 years ago
Thoht
ZyzmlMrMaestroTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: The definition of gender has changed. A growing number of society gives it a new definition. The dictionary itself has a new definition of the word now. People who say gender's definition cannot possibly change don't realize that all words have been made up, and they have no arguments as to why the definition should not change. Most people aren't saying they are transitioning their sex. Females are not saying they are males. Males aren't saying they are females. Males are choosing to associate with the social norms for women. Females are choosing to associate with the social norms for men. "Male/female" is sex. "Woman/man" is gender. A set of social norms that the culture has defined as masculine or feminine. Without the internet, it is unlikely that you would ever meet a transgender. If you did, how would you know unless they told you or unless you felt them up? You can call them feminine males if you want, but there is no argument for why made up words can't change meanings.

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