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The Instigator
K_Michael_Tolman
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Leaning
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

If a crime fighting vigilante like Spiderman or Batman existed, He should be stopped.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Leaning
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/17/2019 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 642 times Debate No: 119937
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (11)
Votes (1)

 

K_Michael_Tolman

Pro

(Yes, I'm aware that they're fictional)
In the PS4 game, Into the Spiderverse, J. Jonah Jameson's podcast makes the argument that Spideman should receive police training and become a part of the official law enforcement if he really wants to stand for justice in New York.
And he's not wrong. In the game, Many people get hurt by Spiderman, Who isn't just harmlessly webbing it up. He swings heavy riot shields at the bad guys, Which could definitely result in bodily harm.
Ya know what, Just watch this
https://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=7Ri8PK0oaQE
It says most of what I have to say.
Leaning

Con

Would we not want average people to be Good Samaritans? Want them to stop a harmful crime if they had the power? How much more then, When they have great power as Batman and Spiderman possess?

I'm not saying we wouldn't want them to call the cops, But time is not always available, Nor are the police always able to do what should be done. Not without being assigned paperwork until the end of their lives behind a desk.

Now to be fair, The title says stop them. I say this because Batman did join the Justice League. Spiderman in many iterations has joined the Avengers (I think). But, If they did not want to work for the government or an organization, Should they be forced to? This I think is more than can reasonably be expected. To expose themselves as even more targetable than they already are.

Take the Spiderman crazy journalist fan. Would it not be worse if she could target Peter Parker personally? His loved ones personally. You ask of them a decision, Sacrifice 'all of your normal life and the normal lives of your loved ones.

Should we not expect of any man to be a man unto themselves? Able to make their own decisions about what is right or wrong? Do more than robotically follow orders of a military or government?

Perhaps the supervillains would go away as they did in the Incredibles, But I do not think that they would in the DC or Marvel universes. (Not sure on that though)

Riot shield and back breaking can be explained away by video game physics. Never an actual danger. Like Looney Tunes.

I'm not sure what governments policy on crime lords is. Do they avoid arresting them because they are avoiding a power vacuum and lack the power to contain it, Or are they enmeshed in yellow tape and so weak as to even remove them in the first place quite often?

The questions were rhetorical, Though you can answer them if you feel you must, There were a lot.
Debate Round No. 1
K_Michael_Tolman

Pro

I disagree. Many of those were not rhetorical from my perspective.
At no point did I say that they shouldn't do good things. But MatPat made a lot of good points.
And joining organizations like the Avengers and Justice League doesn't help in my opinion.
The Avengers are affiliated with the government through SHIELD, But until the Sokovia Accords, None took any responsibility for their actions.
I don't think the Justice League is tied to the government at all.

"Would it not be worse if she could target Peter Parker personally? " I never said to to reveal his identity, Just work more openly with the police, Rather than catching criminals and leaving them for the police. I imagine that filing a report after Spiderman helps save the days takes much longer.
And what about Tony Stark? He's very open about his identity, But Potts was never put in danger because of it. Sure, She was kidnapped by the "Mandarin" in Iron Man 3, But Killian already had a personal agenda against Tony, Not Iron Man.

There's no written policy on crime lords, But I believe the unspoken rule is don't create a power vacuum. As for being to weak to arrest him, It's a) difficult to prove his involvement in crime, And b) he likely has forms of blackmail against people like the district attorney and the mayor.
Leaning

Con

Not everyone wants to give up their rights and freedom to the government or society. Not everyone wants to be a celebrity. I don't think Parker has any 'good reason to believe he would only get good returns out of telling joining the police/military/government.

Nor does everyone want to become a celebrity like Stark.

How could he know that he would get humane treatment? Not be locked up, Treated as a monster, And so on?

I imagine for many people, If they could arrest crime lords, They would.
Debate Round No. 2
K_Michael_Tolman

Pro

"Not everyone wants to give up their rights and freedom to the government or society. Not everyone wants to be a celebrity. "
Spiderman already IS a celebrity. He's also got increased public interest because of the masked identity. He would probably have a brief flair in popularity if his identity was made known, But being a high school/college age student isn't as glamorous as being a millionaire, And he would probably fade to the background, Especially in the MCU, With all the "gods" and Hulks and aliens running around. However, There is something to be said about having a normal life as well. So if you're saying that he doesn't want Peter Parker to become a celebrity, I can understand that.
I don't think he'd be giving up his rights and freedoms by joining the police force, Or some sort of special response team that is part of the government. And I think that he could arrange to still have a private persona, As long as his crimefighting alter ego is transparent with the public about his actions.
Inhumane treatment? If the police or government have any bad intentions, His spidey sense should warn him. Also, To include Batman, Who we've rather accidentally excluded from the discussion, Batman would probably not be treated inhumanely, As there is no basis for it. And in the Marvel or DC universe, The world is a lot more tolerant of people's "differences. " You can't guarantee that he would be treated inhumanely. As long as he negotiated the terms of his involvement with the government carefully, And made sure that it got in the news so that they couldn't just make him disappear.
While I agree that most people would take out a crime lord if they could, That doesn't make it the best choice. The best thing to do, Obviously, Is to prevent one from rising in the first place.
Leaning

Con

Eh, We come to the end. I'll reiterate my arguments and add a few in a fashion. Video game physics make it pretty easy to wail on some guy in a video game, Without them always being crippled for life or killed. Normal people get a bit more sympathy than crazies, Terrorists, And criminals.

In one of the comics, Spider Man comes across a movie set making a movie about him, But they refuse to sign the rights to him as Spider Man, Stating they need to know his secret identity.

The police likely would also have difficulty accepting anything but complete control, Authority, And knowledge of Spider Mans identity. And with the number of corrupt cops one could meet, Spider Mans identity could leak easily.

Super Heroes often have secret identities for reasons. To protect themselves and their ways of life, To protect their loved ones.

Spider Man 'has joined the Avengers in some iterations.

In many of the comics the government and private companies 'do seem to make it a point to lock up, Experiment upon, And target 'Supers. How much or little could be argued, But still I say it is there.

This doesn't count as a source, It's just for fun if you like: YouTube The Stupendium Pictures of Spiderman
Debate Round No. 3
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by K_Michael_Tolman 3 years ago
K_Michael_Tolman
omar2345 made a great point in his vote. "For the reason that cops are corruptible. They have a job and they get paid for it. Vigilantes more than likely work voluntarily. "
Policemen are more likely to go bad than an unpaid individual like Spiderman or Batman.
I do have some issues with MatPat, But the video I brought up isn't one of them. I'm not so sure if he's actually dumbing down his content for a target audience, Or if he's just not as smart as you might first think.
Posted by bigcummer 3 years ago
bigcummer
why would they be stopped theyre good guys and they stop bad guys why would they want to stop that
Posted by K_Michael_Tolman 3 years ago
K_Michael_Tolman
Glad you were able to find it.
I'm not trying to sway extra, I just am really interested in this topic.
Posted by Leaning 3 years ago
Leaning
You have fair points, I just don't think they're enough to be conclusive. Don't think mine are quite either, Maybe a tie, Eh. I think either view makes a persons reasons understandable/justifiable in some way. (Note Leaning comments in comment section cannot be used as RFD)

Doesn't work in the internet search bar even after deleting the spaces somehow, Buy posting it into YouTube worked just fine.
Posted by K_Michael_Tolman 3 years ago
K_Michael_Tolman
A easier way might just be to google: Film theory Spiderman a criminal
Posted by K_Michael_Tolman 3 years ago
K_Michael_Tolman
did you ever get the link to work? Here's it again.
https://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=7Ri8PK0oaQE
Posted by K_Michael_Tolman 3 years ago
K_Michael_Tolman
Even if he doesn't join the police, He should receive training so that people know that he's officially "qualified" to fight crime, And will abide by the same laws. After all, A citizen isn't allowed to speed through the streets of Gotham in what's basically a tank. And Spiderman could be charged with trespassing every time he lands on the roof of a building.
Posted by K_Michael_Tolman 3 years ago
K_Michael_Tolman
I agree with you, And have seen the old Spiderman trilogy.
The important part is that the law still applies to you, Even if you had a sad backstory. Otherwise you would be just like Sandman, Or the Vulture in Homecoming.
Posted by LOL98700z 3 years ago
LOL98700z
To be honest, It is heartbreaking for us all, To see him losing all of his family in the MCU. Please refer to the Wikipedia page of Spider man, It will give u much more detail. Batman, Is like a form of him. While superman is urging for his dream of protecting earth through dominance, Spider man does indeed act as a people's champion. Same fate happened to their parents, Same vigilante, Same idea that support them to go on until death.
Posted by LOL98700z 3 years ago
LOL98700z
The problem with the Pro side is that they have ignored the sacrifice the vigilantes must make for the protecting of commons. The key central idea through out the Marvel Comic is the sacrificing of few in order to get the benefits of many.

One of the most recognizable which Pro talks about here is Spider Man. The only problem with your argument is the fact that the current spider man? Not the real spider man in my heart. The new spider man is from the Ultimate Marvel universe(a reboot universe anyway), While the old one, As we all know him, Is Peter Parker. If you have yet to check him out, You can watch the three Spiderman movie in 2000s.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
K_Michael_TolmanLeaningTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro uses a game theory video. I dislike the person. Mainly due to his ignorance. If you are knowledgeable on the subject you can clearly tell the flaws in his arguments and it is intended to a younger audience so he would leave many issues out just for the video he wants to make to his targeted audience. "And with the number of corrupt cops one could meet, Spider Mans identity could leak easily." I think this was the best point made. For the reason that cops are corruptible. They have a job and they get paid for it. Vigilantes more than likely work voluntarily. One has more of a goal to being a good "Good Samaritans" and the other is just doing their job. Really wished I debated with Pro since I think I could have given more concrete points.

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