The Instigator
backwardseden
Pro (for)
The Contender
NjBagMan
Con (against)

In no possible way was this country, The U. S. Of A founded on christian morals. . . Thankfully

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/7/2019 Category: Politics
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 239 times Debate No: 123157
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (1)
Votes (0)

 

backwardseden

Pro

"The government of the United States is not, In any sense, Founded on the Christian religion. " John Adams

* http://www. Huffingtonpost. Com/jeff-schweitzer/founding-fathers-we-are-n_b_6761840. Html Founding Fathers: We Are Not a Christian Nation

* This from Thomas Jefferson in an April 11, 1823, Letter to John Adams:

The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being in the womb of a virgin, Will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. . . . But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding. . . .

* Declaration of Independence (1776)

The most important assertion in this document is that "to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, Deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. "

Note that the power of government is derived not from any god but from the people. No appeal is made in this document to a god for authority of any kind. In no case are any powers given to religion in the affairs of man.

Remember, Too, That this document was not written to form or found a government but was stating intent in a way that was meant to appeal to an audience with European sensibilities. Only four times is there any reference at all to higher powers " "Laws of Nature and of Nature"s God, " "Supreme Judge of the world, " "their Creator, " and "divine Providence" " and in all four cases the references to a higher power appeal to the idea of inherent human dignity, Never implying a role for a god in government.

Proof that this country was not founded on religion and christianity https://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=3sApQ80QRiE - Neil deGrasse Tyson - "Do you believe in god? "

* The constitution NEVER mentions the word "god".

* The Treaty of Tripoli (Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary) was the first treaty concluded between the United States and Tripolitania, Signed at Tripoli on November 4, 1796, And at Algiers (for a third-party witness) on January 3, 1797. It was submitted to the Senate by President John Adams, Receivingratification unanimously from the U. S. Senate on June 7, 1797, And signed by Adams, Taking effect as the law of the land on June 10, 1797
Article 11 reads:
Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, In any sense, Founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, Religion, Or tranquility, Of Mussulmen (Muslims); and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan (Mohammedan) nation, It is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

* Also 9 of the 10 commandments this country does not obey nor follow as YOUR god set into his ridiculous laws in which if not followed, 4 of them are supposed to be punishable by death. Really?
* Do you think you should be put to death just because you blaspheme? Y____? N____? Your god thinks so. Leviticus 24:16 "And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, He shall surely be put to death, And all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, As he that is born in the land, When he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, Shall be put to death. "
* Do you think you should die if you work on the sabbath? Y____? N____? Your god thinks so. Exodus 31:14 "Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, That soul shall be cut off from among his people. ", Numbers 15: 32-36 " And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, They found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. 33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, And unto all the congregation. 34 And they put him in ward, Because it was not declared what should be done to him. 35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. 36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, And stoned him with stones, And he died; as the Lord commanded Moses. " Notice jesus worked on the sabbath, He was not put to death. Strange? That supposed "law" that christians use is in ill effect and does not work.
* Do you think you should die for merely cursing at your parents? Y____? N____? Your god thinks so. Exodus 21:17 "And he that curseth his father, Or his mother, Shall surely be put to death. , Leviticus 20:9 "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him. ", Mark 7:10 "For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, Let him die the death:, Matthew 15:4 "For God commanded, Saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, Let him die the death. "
* Do you think you should die if you commit adultery? Y____? N____? Your god thinks so. Leviticus 20:10 "And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, Even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, The adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. "

So, You as a supposed christian, You follow your unproven god's orders you obey your bible and you do exactly to the letter what it says, And you slaughter everybody that blaspheme's, Works on the sabbath, Commits adultery, And curses at their parents. Ah but wait, There's other stipulations that are gay's must also be murdered Leviticus 20:13 as well as those who do not believe in your god and worship other god's must also be murdered Deuteronomy 13: 9-10 and Deuteronomy 17: 2-5. So have fun and YOU FOLLOW YOUR GOD'S S--T FOR laws rules and regulations that only the insane would dream up and then put into practice.

Now what are christian beliefs? Google time!
* Belief in God the Father, Jesus Christ as the Son of God, And the Holy Spirit.
* The death, Descent into hell, Resurrection and ascension of Christ.
* The holiness of the Church and the communion of saints.
* Christ's second coming, The Day of Judgement and salvation of the faithful.
None of these impregnate, Thankfully because people can think on their own without the help of an idiocy, U. S. Of A law and its morals that are in existence today or back when this country was founded.

https://en. M. Wikipedia. Org/wiki/The_Faiths_of_the_Founding_Fathers - The Faiths of the Founding Fathers
1. The smallest group, Founders who had left their Judeo-Christian heritages and become advocates of the Enlightenment religion of nature and reason called "Deism". These figures included Thomas Paine and Ethan Allen. [page needed]

2. The founders who remained practicing Christians. They retained a supernaturalist world view, A belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ, And an adherence to the teachings of their denomination. These founders included Patrick Henry, John Jay, And Samuel Adams. [page needed] Holmes also finds that most of the wives and daughters of the founders fell into this category. [page needed]

3. The largest group consisted of founders who retained Christian loyalties and practice but were influenced by Deism. They believed in little or none of the miracles and supernaturalism inherent in the Judeo-Christian tradition. Holmes finds a spectrum of such Deistic Christians among the founders, [citation needed] ranging from John Adams and George Washington on the conservative right to Benjamin Franklin and James Monroe on the skeptical left. [page needed]

Rules:
Prove that this country was founded on christian morals.

dsjpk5 is disqualified from the voting procedures as he tries to pretend he's god and thus change the voting structure of who wins and loses here on DDO.
NjBagMan

Con

Your argument is a lot of words that prove so very little. You seem to be defending the notion that the US in not a Christian Nation - and on that point, I would agree with you. The Founders specifically did not want us the be a Theocracy. And many of them had knew that the first settlers to the Americas were fleeing religions persecution and wanted to avoid that. Even in the earliest days, The Founders knew that there was a plurality of religions in the colonies, And fest that it was a strength - the government could not pass laws that restricted religious freedom and should not be a religious institution - separation of church and state blah, Blah, Blah.

But the idea you are debating is whether the country was founded on Christian MORALS. And this is where your argument fails.

The USA was founded on the idea, Ideals, And yes, Morals of the Founding Fathers. As you point out in your arguments, The founding fathers were a very diverse lot - but most of them had their morals, At least in part, Shaped by their Christian religious background. So, If our nation was founded on the morals of our Founding Fathers, And those morals were mostly Christian based, Then our nation was in fact founded on Christian morals.
Debate Round No. 1
backwardseden

Pro

"Your argument is a lot of words that prove so very little. " *yawn* Gargantuanly boring. "You seem to be defending the notion that the US in not a Christian Nation - and on that point, I would agree with you. " Then you state "The Founders specifically did not want us the be a Theocracy. " Then you state "So, If our nation was founded on the morals of our Founding Fathers, And those morals were mostly Christian based, " which is a direct hypocritical contradiction. Its either that or you don't know, Because they were not as RD 1 ultimately proved. Try reading #3 of "The Faiths of the Founding Fathers" which directly states and is a correct statement "The largest group consisted of founders who retained Christian loyalties and practice but were influenced by Deism. They believed in little or none of the miracles and supernaturalism inherent in the Judeo-Christian tradition. " If the majority of the founding fathers believed in all of the christian loyalties, Then this country WOULD in fact morally be a christian nation in which has thankfully never happened. The 10 commandments would be imposed in which thankfully have been rejected numerous times. School prayer would be imposed in which thankfully countless times has been rejected and evolution would ---never--- be allowed to be taught in ---any--- public or private school AND severe punishment would be exacted if not followed etc etc etc.
NjBagMan

Con

I really do not think you know what yo are arguing. Do you even know what a moral is? You keep making points that the US was not founded as a Christian nation with the laws and rules of the Judeo-Christian faith. And in fact you are 100% correct in this fact. And I agree that this is a very good thing.

I am not a religious man - Wikipedia's summary of David Holmes book "The Faith of the Founding Fathers" that you have now quoted twice I feel would largely describe me as well - "The largest group consisted of founders who retained Christian loyalties and practice but were influenced by Deism. They believed in little or none of the miracles and super-naturalism inherent in the Judeo-Christian tradition. " I was raised a Roman Catholic, But no longer cling to the faith and reject much of it. I do not long for a society that is based on the the Christian laws and traditions - I believe in the wisdom of our secular society. All of the things you rail against in your argument - the 10 commandments as law, School prayer, No room for evolution and sever punishment for not being a true believer, Etc, I agree are bad and we are better off for not having.

For me, This argument though comes down to one semantic: the word MORALS. Everything that we agree are not part of the founding of the USA and would be problematic do not stem from morals, But from a Theocracy. They would come from implementing a religious state. But morality is not the laws of a religion, It is differentiation of intentions, Decisions and actions between those that are distinguished as proper and those that are improper. It's the principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior. Having Christian morals does not mean following the Christian traditions to the letter. I believe that I have largely Christian morals. My sense of right and wrong was formed, And grew out of, The Christian faith.

If you read David Holmes actual book, And not just quote the Wikipedia entry, You will find that Holmes defines this largest group as being religious, But in a different way. Respectful of Christianity, They admired the ethics of Jesus, And believed that religion could play a beneficial role in society. But they tended to deny the divinity of Christ, And a few seem to have been agnostic about the very existence of God. Although the founding fathers were religious men, Holmes shows that it was a faith quite unlike the Christianity of today's evangelicals.

Holmes" book refutes some of the foolishness that is claimed about the founders. They were not devout, Orthodox Christians intending to found a Christian nation. Nor were they strict Enlightenment rationalists, Determined to extirpate Christianity as an impediment to human progress. But, They did understand religion as a private matter and one primarily concerned with ethics and morals. The secularization of society goes back to the Reformation and, Religion was often understood in utilitarian terms, At least by the political leaders of the time. And so it is today. Our nation was not founded as a Christian nation, And it is far from clear that it was founded by Christians. But it was founded by people who considered themselves Christians.

In your round 1 argument, You refer to a quote by Thomas Jefferson. Jefferson was a strong Deist who was more interested in religious freedom than imposing religion upon anyone else It was this very freedom that allowed Thomas Jefferson to cut up his bible and take out anything he didn"t like. Mainly, That included any mention of miracles or things that were "contrary to reason. " This bible was for his own personal use, As Thomas Jefferson considered Jesus" ethical and moral teaching "sublime. " However, It acquired a name; The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth. And today it can be found in the Smithsonian museum.

Ultimately, Even your arguments point to these men as having their lives, At least partly, Shaped by Christianity. They clearly had their thoughts of right and wrong - or their morals - in some way impacted Christian ideals. And they went to great lengths to ensure religious freedom and separation of church and state. I agree that God, Jesus Christ, And Christianity are not stated once in all of the Constitution, And it is clearly done so on purpose. But, As I stated above, The Founding Fathers considered themselves Christians, Who valued the morals and ethics of the Jesus and the Christian tradition. And these morals passed through them, Into the founding of America.

No we are not a Christian nation. We do not follow the laws of orthodox Christianity in our government. But, We do have Christian morals present in the founding of America. There is no way to view this otherwise.
Debate Round No. 2
backwardseden

Pro

Talk about being a contradictory hypocrite? But you've emassed that in dying flames. "Your argument is a lot of words that prove so very little. " You really should pay very close attention to exactly to-the-letter-what-you-say. Nah. Because you don't.
All I did was counter what you stated in RD1. That's it. Nothing more. It has 0% of nothing to do with what pigeon brained ideals I believe in or not. Kapeesh? AND you cannot stomach it. So you gave a truly pitiful reason in contrast which shows your broken ego and arrogance as you came up with the truly miserable excuse of "Do you even know what a moral is? " which that right there is worthy of ending this debate. RD1 more than proved morals in which should be followed by all, For the most part. Take one lucky guess at the one(s) that I disagree with?
Let's move on. . .

"You keep making points that the US was not founded as a Christian nation. . . " WRONG! Now read EXACTLY to-the-letter what does the headliner post say? Because there's a very big difference from that quote of yours. Let's continue "with the laws and rules of the Judeo-Christian faith. And in fact you are 100% correct in this fact. And I agree that this is a very good thing. " Well strangely, If you agree with it, Then why are you even bothering? But regardless, You are misquoting what I'm stating and following your own terminologies.

"I am not a religious man" That's a very good thing. - "They believed in little or none of the miracles and super-naturalism inherent in the Judeo-Christian tradition. ". . . Is what hits hard. Without the majority of that belief, This country may as well belong in the dark ages without ever awakening from the dark cloud of religion. "I was raised a Roman Catholic, But no longer cling to the faith and reject much of it. " That's a good thing. I was born jewish. But was awakened at 14 when my best friends and I were comparing their bibles and my English translation of the Torah. We noticed that the book of Ruth was out of chronological order. They thought they were so smart. So they in being so smug, And myself we took it to their pastor. Their pastor said "Well, Maybes its us that's wrong. " BANG! I became an atheist. It doesn't take a yodeling Buddhist monk to figure out that if one book is out of chronological order, The entire text is out of order.
OK good. "I do not long for a society that is based on the the Christian laws and traditions - I believe in the wisdom of our secular society. All of the things you rail against in your argument - the 10 commandments as law, School prayer, No room for evolution and sever punishment for not being a true believer, Etc, I agree are bad and we are better off for not having. "

OK you mention. . . "For me. . . " Soooo, Regardless, What you've stated is interesting to be sure, And no, I have not read David Holmes book. Nevertheless the definitions of "moral" is as follows:
1. Of, Relating to, Or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical:
moral attitudes.
2. Expressing or conveying truths or counsel as to right conduct, As a speaker or a literary work.
3. Founded on the fundamental principles of right conduct rather than on legalities, Enactment, Or custom:
moral obligations.
4. Capable of conforming to the rules of right conduct:
a moral being.

So gotta disagree with your terminologies of "But from a Theocracy. They would come from implementing a religious state. " Then you use that ever-dreaded skientifc term "But" which would mean that you are ready to give me an the readers an opposing viewpoint, Which do get tiring after a while. "morality is not the laws of a religion, " Sure it is. Why not? "It is differentiation of intentions, Decisions and actions between those that are distinguished as proper and those that are improper. It's the principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior. " That's the difference between what is being moral and immoral. "Having Christian morals does not mean following the Christian traditions to the letter. " Oh sure it does. It absolutely does. When god gave the 10 commandments and 4 of them gave the death warrants, They were 100% intended to be carried out. I guess you don't believe that "love thy neighbor as thyself" does not mean following the Christian traditions to the letter? Right? What about the 2nd coming of christ. Awe let's just have these puking christians put that on the back-burner oh let's say FOREVER - correct? Etc etc etc. See, What so-called christians do is they do what they want, How they want, When they want, Because they think that their shield of religion will protect them forever when in fact there's absolutely no such a thing as a christian for many reasons, As these so-called christians DO NOT follow the teachings of its ridiculous completely insane christ that they in no possible way can even prove has ever existed, AND according to their own bible's was NOT the messiah IN THE FIRST PLACE! That their so-called god, In which once again nobody can prove has ever existed in the entire existence of the human race, Would ever be stupid enough, Not ever, Not for any reason, To use text, The worst form of communication possible TO A GOD!

"I believe that I have largely Christian morals. My sense of right and wrong was formed, And grew out of, The Christian faith. " Really? I don't think so. As a matter of fact, I know you don't. Your christ tells you to pit fathers against sons, Mothers against daughters as only someone completely insane would do. This thing also tells you to get rid of ALL of your possessions. You have your computer, Your clothes, Your house, Your car = wrong up nope. AND THEN FOLLOW IT?

http://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=x-slAgzJmdU - Why Does Every Intelligent christian disobey jesus?
There's tons of videos to prove christ was not the true savior and there's no proof for its existence

Then this idiot tells you to love your enemies. Really? This enemy that has bullied you for years? This enemy is prepared to nuke this country? This enemy is the so-called president of this country, Easily the worst president of all time who is a known liar (at least 10, 300 of them according to CNN since sitting in the big white barn) and a racist pig who is only out for himself? This so-called messiah tells you that Mark 16:18 "They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, It shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, And they shall recover. " Really? That's a good one. Just how many have died with this proof of purchase? Really moral huh?
The very best?
John 5: 16-18 "16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, And sought to slay him, Because he had done these things on the sabbath day. 17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, And I work. 18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, Because he not only had broken the sabbath, But said also that God was his Father, Making himself equal with God. "
Many problems with those verses. 1. 17 So according to jesus, His father, Namely god works on the sabbath. 2. There"s a 0% chance that god is going to work on the sabbath, NOT ever. So either 3. Jesus flat out lied thus proving that he is false, The entire NT is false and christianity is false or 4. These verses are misprints in which is the most likely of probabilities in which is supposed to be a perfect book. 5. The entire OT is false which there"s a 0% chance of that if you believe in god as once again there"s no chance god would ---ever--- work on the sabbath. 6. 18 Notice how jesus himself appoints himself to be equal with god. 7. Where did jesus get the permission from god to do this? 8. Wow. What an egotist. 9. No need to worry. The entire bible screams of god"s superior ego god complex. That"s what the bible is entirely about and nothing else. 10. There"s no proof whatsoever that god and jesus has ---ever--- existed.

Every time you use the word "But" your arguments become more chaotic and confusing and impossible to understand. , "Our nation was not founded as a Christian nation, And it is far from clear that it was founded by Christians. But it was founded by people who considered themselves Christians. " That is an impossible statement(s) to understand because it is such a supermassive hypocritical contradiction(s). Just like the bible itself? Sure. As there's a good 1, 000 contradictions and inconsistencies thus making it unreadable.

"Jefferson was a strong Deist who was more interested in religious freedom than imposing religion upon anyone else" So was Adams in the very strictest of terms.
"It was this very freedom that allowed Thomas Jefferson to cut up his bible and take out anything he didn"t like. " Well gee, That is exactly what ALL SUPPOSED CHRISTIANS do, No exceptions, None, To suit their wants, Needs and desires, And they chuck the rest.

"Ultimately, Even your arguments point to these men as having their lives, At least partly, Shaped by Christianity" in which they no doubt were. "They clearly had their thoughts of right and wrong - or their morals - in some way impacted Christian ideals. " Agreed. That's what deism is. "And they went to great lengths to ensure religious freedom and separation of church and state. " Ohhhh nooo. Not all of them. "Partly shaped by christianity the absolute furthest thing from "they went to great lengths to ensure religious freedom and separation of church and state. " OK I can't continue with this. You are all over the map. Its up and down, Across, Middle point, Everywhere etc. You say one thing, And then BANG, You directly contradict yourself. I HAVE NO HOPE OF FOLLOWING YOU! Bye.
NjBagMan

Con

So much anger. And I really don't fully understand it.

First, I don't think I'm being contradictory, I think that this boils down to the fact that you and I differ on exactly what morals are. And I guess that's fine, Because we are going to have to agree to disagree on that point. What you view as contradictory, I think I am just parsing out the distinction between morals and laws based on religion.

I will concede that based on your definition of morals, As you stated in Rd 3, Then yes, The USA was not founded on Christian morals. If we use my definition of morals, That might change the thinking, But that is neither here or there.

I don't believe that I accused you of contradiction, And I don't think you were being contradictory. I do think you took some of the source material out of context to fit your argument and I tried to bring in the full context - but I probably did the same in either this debate or another one. I don't think it's wrong, I was just trying to expand the context to fit my point.

Ultimately, I am doing this to to educate myself, And because I gain something through the back and forth. I will gladly take up a position I do not believe and try and argue it in order to learn, To make myself a better debater and to make sure that I am not being closed minded to other points of view. And I enjoy debating.

I'm not sure why this devolved into a condemnation of God. I'm not really interested in debating the existence of God, At least when the counter to it is coming from such an angry place. I doubt the existence of God - terms like proven and unproven don't mean much to me - but my personal beliefs on the matter are so complex and contradictory that it would probably make your mind explode. I think the bible makes interesting reading, But I've never took at work of non-fiction. Even growing up in my church, We were taught not to take the bible as facts but as story's to help learn how to live better lives. Either way, My understanding is that the Bible is the word of God as written by men. And while God is infallible, Men are not, And so yes, The Bible is full of contradictions and wrong statements.

Religions, And how man interprets the existence of God is a much more interesting topic to me. Because it really doesn't matter if God exists or not, If so many humans believe that God exists, That Jesus was his son on earth, Blah, Blah, . How has religion evolved and incorporated aspects of religions - the idea that Christianity is a monotheistic religion is nothing short of a joke. Because religion has to have served some purpose in the history of the human evolution to have maintained such a tight hold on people. The simple idea of a God is not enough.

I apologize if I triggered you. I was just trying to have an interesting debate, And my point of view was coming from a different view of the word morals. I think if you were to read my arguments from that point of view, They would seem slightly less contradictory and all over the place.

I'm guessing that I didn't give you the debate you wanted - I was making a semantically based argument based on the word and you wanted to debate if the USA was or should be a Christian nation. I couldn't give you the exact debate you wanted, Because A) I mostly agree with your sentiment, B) I thought the debate would be more interesting (at least for me) to change the parameters of the debate based on my argument. It didn't work.

I probably started this off on the wrong foot by being obnoxious on my first statement in RD 1 - so be it.
Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by Knight_Dragon 2 years ago
Knight_Dragon
Have you not learn an single thing?
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