The Instigator
squeakly54n6
Pro (for)
Winning
4 Points
The Contender
DrDallas
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Is socialism a completely evil system?

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
squeakly54n6
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/22/2019 Category: Economics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 505 times Debate No: 121473
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (2)
Votes (1)

 

squeakly54n6

Pro

Due to the nature of this topic, I do not have to prove why anything is moral, You have to prove to me why it is immoral. However before we begin I would like to define Socialism, Redistribution of wealth, And evil. Also pro will waive the last round since I am using this round to establish rules and definitions.

Socialism: The state owns the common means of production through investment or regulation, And redistributes wealth.

Redistribution of Wealth: Redistribution of income and redistribution of wealth are respectively the transfer of income and of wealth (including physical property) from some individuals to others by means of a social mechanism.

Evil: Harmful to society
DrDallas

Con

As we know, Capitalism already has a small integrated socialism system. In the US, Its called taxes. But socialism is taking this a step forward by a lot. By money being taken out of your account, You get benefits.
But that is immorraly wrong.
Just think about it.
For healthcare, You are paying with your tax dollars to people that need healthcare more than you!
And it isn't a donation, You can't just stop paying taxes.
So basically, You are paying with your own money for other people.

And let me provide a metaphor.
I LOVE metaphors.

Just because 5/6 people agreed to beat another guy and take his money, Doesn't make it socially correct.
Debate Round No. 1
squeakly54n6

Pro

" For healthcare, You are paying with your tax dollars to people that need healthcare more than you!
And it isn't a donation, You can't just stop paying taxes.
So basically, You are paying with your own money for other people. "

- First of all, Public healthcare and public education benefit the rich as well. While there aren't any statistics on education, Healthcare wise socialized healthcare would actually be cheaper than privatized healthcare.

Statistically, Bernie's healthcare plan, For example, Would actually save people money. Sure you may bring up every so common argument that we would have to raise taxes, However, If the taxes are cheaper and it's universal I see no problem with universal healthcare.

This is a rather simple math equation, I spend 2, 000 on privatized healthcare, Now that it's nationalized I now pay 1, 500 in taxes. However since I no longer have to pay for privatized healthcare, I save 500 dollars. While the numbers aren't exact, The concept is still the same.

You may bring up quality, And this is a fair argument to have however again statistically our life expectancy is one of the lowest in the developing world, Compared to other countries with universal or mixed healthcare we are lagging behind. National healthcare wise, Spain and Canada are doing better than the US in terms of life expectancy. Mixed wise we have Germany and Switzerland.

To give you some perspective, Statistically, 45, 000 people die from being underinsured, Which is equivilent to a monthly 9/11.

To conclude on the universal healthcare bit, I'd personally rather see a tiny drop in quality than to see millions of Americans go bankrupt and die due to private healthcare.

I would like to ask whether or not you are an anarcho-capitalist since it seems as though you are arguing against taxes and the government in general. Judging from your profile and stances on the big issues, It seems you are a conservative so let's discuss that.

On your stance on big issues, You believe that,

- A border fence is necessary

- Against legalized prostitution

- Pro free trade

- And against socialism

This is rather inconsistent and here's why,

- Why would you be supporting limited borders and not supporting open borders since an integral part of capitalism and free trade is the free movement of labor to ensure the economy is working as efficiently as possible?

- Why are you against legalized prostitution when that directly contradicts the idea of a free market and free trade, In this case, It is a service being sex.

Going off of this, Why are you essentially shilling for the capitalists when it goes against your believes of free trade, Free market, And capitalism?

" Just because 5/6 people agreed to beat another guy and take his money, Doesn't make it socially correct. "

- This is an inacurrate analogy since it's assuming that we live in a perfect society and everyone has the same opportunities and starting position.

Since this is inaccurate I will provide a more " realistic " scenario.

You have 2 people, Bob and Bobby

Bob:

- Grows up in poverty

- Grows up in a single motherhood household

- Goes to an underfunded public school

- Has 5 other siblings and doesn't receive as much attention from his mother

- He has to go to a community college first and then transfer to a midterm university since he can't afford a good college.

- When he does go to college he has to work a part-time job.

Bobby:

- Grows up rich, Knowing nothing but a full belly and lots of money.

- Grows up in a two-parent household.

- Goes to a prestigious private school.

- Has only 2 other siblings and receives ample attention from his mother and father.

- Get's to go to a prestigious and expensive private university and doesn't have to work a part-time job.

Going off of this, Which boy do you think will have an easier time being more successful and will most likely succeed?

The simple answer is we live in an unequal society, And because of this, A progressive tax is necessary to remain fair.
DrDallas

Con

Exactly. We live in an unequal society. Do you realize you just went too far? You are now agreeing with a smaller concept of communism, Something that I know a lot about and have grown up in a post communistic country.
If you want universal healthcare, Let's talk Russia.
It is free, Universal but the quality is horrible.
In russia, Life expectancy is 6 years lower than that of the US!
And the healthcare isn't even to blame, It is the products we eat and the obesity epidemic.
Okay. People might say I am "spoiled" cause I live in the US, But your Bob vs Bobby argument can be disproven easily.
My whole family tree is dirt poor. My grandpa was the first ever person to learn how to read. They all built bricks to get food and absolutely struggled.
My dad, Worked his butt off so hard that he helped us not only move from Kyrgyztan but to Russia and later to US.
In college, He literrally operated as 2 different people and had to work 2 as hard cause his brother was lazy and his dad just did the tests for him. He lived even worse than Bob.
But he ended up like Bobby.
If we are all equal, That is horrible.
Communism is horrible, Believe me.
What you also don't understand is that if you are poor insurance covers 90% of your bill and the rest go as a loan so. . . .
You need to do a bit more research.

If we give healthcare and colleges under control of the government, What difference will it make vs USSR?
Also you kind of misunderstood something. . .
Illegal vs Legal Immigration are different things. I want border control. I want a wall.

We are currently making Legal Immigration easier. That is how it should be done. You completely misunderstood that argument.

Before you say I am "unqualified" I am involved in Politics and went to Stanford to debate THIS VERY TOPIC.
Debate Round No. 2
squeakly54n6

Pro

" Do you realize you just went too far? You are now agreeing with a smaller concept of communism, Something that I know a lot about and have grown up in a post-communistic country. "

- Assuming you grew up in a fascist dictatorship ship than I am sorry but this is irrelevant to the argument and here's why,

This country was NOT communist, It was, In fact, More of a fascist dictatorship if anything.

- By this same logic, I could pick apart your argument since by you supporting republicans you are supporting a smaller version of fascism.

We are not talking about communism, We are talking about a mixed market economy which is two different concepts. This is an obvious red herring.

" If you want universal healthcare, Let's talk Russia.
It is free, Universal but the quality is horrible. "

- My opponent is clearly cherry picking countries at this point,

What about other countries with universal or mixed healthcare such as, Australia, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Switzerland, Norway, Canada, Spain, Sweden, Luxembourg, And the Uk. Most of which have higher life expectancies than the US. And all of which are cheaper?

", It is the products we eat and the obesity epidemic. "

- Ok fair enough, I will compare a country in Europe with a very similar culture and history as the US.

It is none other than my personal favorite country in Europe, Germany.

Let's compare them and see how they stack up,

- Germany has a big economic and cultural powerhouse of its continent

- Is a relatively young country conglomerated out of a bunch of little separate states with common backgrounds

- A strange mix of socially progressive and conservative values and legislation (though in many ways the opposite mix from the US)

-A Workaholic culture (relative to its neighbors? ),

- Less urbanized and maybe more provincial in places than most of Western Europe (from my understanding, Rural Germany can be isolated and conservative in much the same way as the rural US)

had to learn a lot by coming to terms with its shitty history

But overall is a profoundly prosperous and industrious from a global viewpoint despite everything.

And guess what, Germany has a form of national healthcare and it has higher life expectancies than the US.

" My grandpa was the first ever person to learn how to read. They all built bricks to get food and absolutely struggled.
My dad, Worked his butt off so hard that he helped us not only move from Kyrgyztan but to Russia and later to US.
In college, He literrally operated as 2 different people and had to work 2 as hard cause his brother was lazy and his dad just did the tests for him. He lived even worse than Bob. "

- You are completely ignoring and misrepresenting my entire point,

I am not stating that it's not impossible to change your economic status, However, It is a fact which you've already agreed to that some people have easier opportunities to succeed than other people do. This is the exact reason as to why we have a progressive tax.

" If we are all equal, That is horrible. "

- We are not trying to make everyone equal, That is not possible

We are trying to ensure the poor and underprivileged have the opportunity to succeed and have an overall happy life.

Essentially we are trying to make everyone equal as much as reasonably possible, What you are referring to is making everyone equal but equally poor.

" What you also don't understand is that if you are poor insurance covers 90% of your bill and the rest go as a loan so. . . .
You need to do a bit more research. "

- This issue doesn't affect the poor entirely, This issue also affects the middle class since the middle class isn't as poor enough to qualify for social programs but also aren't rich enough to not be affected.

- Also, Where is even your source of this? Poor people still have to work part-time jobs in college to afford to go to college so actually, You need to do a bit more research.

" Illegal vs Legal Immigration are different things. I want border control. I want a wall. "

- Then you are going against your own beliefs of a capitalist since capitalism calls for the free movement of labor in other words, Open borders.

" Before you say I am "unqualified" I am involved in Politics and went to Stanford to debate THIS VERY TOPIC. "

- Very irrelevant statement to make, I don't care what qualifications someone is to debate, What I care about is how they debate.
DrDallas

Con

Okay I completely don't understand you.
You are saying a border against ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS that has access for TRADERS is bad to the economy? Do you know we lose 200 billion dollars every year to illegal immigrants in government benefits and only get 20 billion back in taxes?
Open borders never go against capitalism? Do you know what that stands for?

The free movement of labor. I think the free movement of labor should be checked. Just like every package sent from China requires a check through a metal detector, So why not we require identification when someone is coming in to trade? Doesn't president Trump support legal immigration?

Im not cherry picking a country. I just simply chose a country that I lived in and knew a lot about. I could see how it worked, I could see the lesser quality of hospitals.

Doesn't every country have a socialist element.
Welfare in America has been going on. It helped poor people. Have you heard of that?
Debate Round No. 3
squeakly54n6

Pro

" ou are saying a border against ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS that has access for TRADERS is bad to the economy? Do you know we lose 200 billion dollars every year to illegal immigrants in government benefits and only get 20 billion back in taxes? "

- Ok, I am convinced you don't understand my argument at all.

I am not stating that illegal immigrants are good for the economy, Quite the opposite.

By supporting capitalists and believing the regulation of the market is " evil " than you are a hypocrite since you believe very clearly that you're against illegal immigration.

Which of course goes against capitalism since one of the core beliefs of capitalism is the free market which calls for the free movement of labor amongst nations.

Very clearly you're shilling for capitalists.

" Im not cherry picking a country. I just simply chose a country that I lived in and knew a lot about. I could see how it worked, I could see the lesser quality of hospitals. "

- You did, You picked out 1 country which has poor national healthcare and used it as an argument against it, Completely glossing over around 20 other developed countries with successful national or mixed healthcare systems.

" Doesn't every country have a socialist element.
Welfare in America has been going on. It helped poor people. Have you heard of that? "

- Ok so then you agree that we need at least some levels of socialization for a country to be successful, Which in turn means you concede the entire debate.

I
DrDallas

Con

Let me redefine some terms.
I have read about this topic, And I actually found that Denmark and Norway have a capitalist system.

Socialism isn't actually dependent on healthcare or college, So let's stay on topic.

Socialism is the measure of market and Capitalism is a system of free market, Where you can make as much items as you want, Hire as much people as you want under your own money conditions (except minimum wage, That prevents slavery) and sell the items at whatever price you want.

Having a government controlled market is horrible. The Russian terms h4;k7;m2;k7;m4;m9;m0; "Defecite" really describes this topic.
It prevents people from making things to sell with out government approval. (Store level, Not personal selling)

Let me provide a very good example. My dad's side of the family make fur hats and sell them on the black market, As money was tough. It was a horrible fact that you can get arrested for selling fur hats due to the government not being able to control the supply.

Free Market works.

And yes, Socialism is a completely evil system.

Venezuela, Has the most oil reserves IN THE WORLD, And somehow cannot get its country from rising. Lots of countries failed under socialism, And Venezuela is one of them. I know the government made a lot of poor decisions, But those decisions came from a socialistic point of view.
Debate Round No. 4
squeakly54n6

Pro

" I have read about this topic, And I actually found that Denmark and Norway have a capitalist system. "

- These countries have the redistribution of wealth through taxes and social programs, And heavily regulate the means of production. Which is anything but a capitalist market, If your counter argument would be that it's mixed, Well the debate is on if it's a completely evil system.

" Socialism isn't actually dependent on healthcare or college, So let's stay on topic. "

- Actually, This is on topic and you can't run away from this,

One of the core beliefs of socialism is the redistribution of wealth.

Well, In this case, The government is taking wealth and redistributing it through college and healthcare.

" Having a government controlled market is horrible. "

- Ok than you're essentially a hypocrite since you claim to be in support of capitalism which calls of the free market which contradicts your core beliefs as a converative which are,

- You are against legalized prostitution which is a restriction of the free market.

- You are in support of environmental protection which is the regulation/restriction of the market.

- You are in support of restricted borders which goes against the free market since the free market calls for the free movement of labor.

" The Russian terms h4;k7;m2;k7;m4;m9;m0; "Defecite" really describes this topic. "

- Citing an entire article is not only poor debate conduct, But is lazy.

I don't want to read some article, I want to hear YOUR arguments.

" Free Market works. "

- Please cite me a country where a free market in the way you're describing it actually is effective.

Let's take for example all of the countries during the industrial revolution since they fit the definition of a capitalist paradise with little regulation and little taxes which includes various countries in Europe and in America.

During this time these countries had,

- Poor living conditions due to the unregulated housing market

- Horrible working conditions which caused people to die and lose limbs

- A vast amount of wealth inequality and poverty

- A huge amount of crime

- An environment in shambles due to lack of regulation.

To conclude on the point, The market NEEDS regulation to be effective.

" Venezuela, Has the most oil reserves IN THE WORLD, And somehow cannot get its country from rising. Lots of countries failed under socialism, And Venezuela is one of them. I know the government made a lot of poor decisions, But those decisions came from a socialistic point of view. "

- Again you are are cherry picking countries again,

What about successful countries with high levels of socialization such as Denmark, Norway, Canada, Spain, The United Kingdom, Australia, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Germany, And Japan.

- Secondly, Venezuela isn't failing because of socialism, It's actually more fascist if you take into account it's a system so let's break it down,

- The government itself is based in armed forces or in other words a police state which isn't exactly socialist and is more of a fascist dictatorship.

- Socialism wasn't what ruined the economy it was a mixture of having over-dependence on oil and hyperinflation.

You could, However, Make the argument that these were government ran, However, They were simply run poorly which isn't the fault of socialism and is instead the fault of their ignorant and corrupt government.

To conclude my opponent is very obviously a hypocrite and a shill for capitalists since they're advancing capitalists interests while at the same time are arguing for the restriction of the market through environmental protection and illegal prostitution.

And not to mention the fact that my opponent numerous times has cherry-picked out a select few of countries and have avoided rebuttals and points I've brought up. EX. Healthcare and College.

Anyways just a reminder, My opponent has to waive the last round as per the rules set out at the beginning of the debate.
DrDallas

Con

Okay look. I just can't argue anymore since you clearly do not understand. You can debate about free healthcare and free colleges, Socialism is NOT a part of that.
Socialism is the ideology of free trade.

And also, You are saying borders restrict free trade.
House doors also do, As you are restricting labor.
Debate Round No. 5
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by squeakly54n6 3 years ago
squeakly54n6
Con didn't address my points and instead resorted to dodging all of my arguments in the final rounds.

I want voters to consider this when voting in terms of conduct and convincing arguments.
Posted by squeakly54n6 3 years ago
squeakly54n6
Sources for this debate will be in my profile comment section.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
squeakly54n6DrDallasTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Con was completely out of his depth when he said this "Socialism is the ideology of free trade." Socialism is the redistribution of wealth not free trade. This is of course a bad argument and bad conduct for not even understanding what the opponent is talking about. Con was clearly unable to debunk this "The simple answer is we live in an unequal society, And because of this, A progressive tax is necessary to remain fair." Con said this "Venezuela, Has the most oil reserves IN THE WORLD, And somehow cannot get its country from rising. Lots of countries failed under socialism, And Venezuela is one of them. I know the government made a lot of poor decisions, But those decisions came from a socialistic point of view." without providing any evidence or explaining how he got to that point.

By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use.