The Instigator
lesibianpotato
Pro (for)
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The Contender
zapshe
Con (against)
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0 Points

LGBTQ+ people in the media will help people

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/31/2019 Category: Politics
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 686 times Debate No: 123778
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (56)
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lesibianpotato

Pro

Putting LGBTQ+ people in the media would help LGBTQ+ kids by showing them its not weird or gross or anything and they shouldn't be forced to hide it.
zapshe

Con

"Putting LGBTQ+ people in the media would help LGBTQ+ kids"

LGBTQ kids? A kid cannot in any way be part of the LGBTQ group as they have not even developed secondary sexual traits. They haven't undergone puberty and so they shouldn't have sexual desires to influence their sexual preferences, And they also would not be recommended to go into any kind of sex change surgery. The implication of saying "LGBTQ kids" is an assertion saying that a kid, Someone with no sexual desires, Can/should make their own decisions on whether or not they like to align to a certain gender/preference when they're not even old enough to be held accountable for their own actions.

"by showing them its not weird or gross or anything"

Sometimes it's VERY weird and gross. Imagine going out with a girl, You're spending time together, You maybe even go to bed with her. You wake up, And she reveals to you that, Tadaa(! ), She was born a man. That's not only weird, But VERY gross. And don't you dare tell me that this is because of a phobia of trans-people, Because if I had sex with a man that would also be gross - has nothing to do with a fear or hatred towards men. The prime truth is that someone who has a legal sex change is not obligated to reveal that info to their partners - when doing so is clearly a disgusting and sly way to trick someone. Before giving these people media attention to show that it's normal, You should make sure that it's a regulated group that isn't actively making themselves look bad.

Moreover, You say it's not weird, But sex-change patients are pretty weird in my book. Imagine looking like a woman and living your life as such, When your DNA would blatantly reveal your a man. Imagine looking like a man, And then carrying a baby to term because you were actually born a woman. Imagine being a man who has a sex change and then goes into women's sports and sets world records - and anyone who says it's because you were born a man is written off as a bigot. Imagine trying to pass yourself off as a woman after a sex change when you look like a man with a wig. This is the group of people you want kids to look up to as if they aren't weird? You may as well be telling me to put Jocelyn Wildenstein on the media to show kids that plastic surgery isn't weird. Again, They can do whatever they want, But don't try to poison young minds with the "it isn't weird! " lie. What individuals do is their own thing, But they go to far. The only reason you'd want them to have media coverage to not seem weird is because they keep shoving themselves in people's faces - making it so much harder for people to just accept them and move on. This satirical 3 minute video pretty much explains what I'm saying, And it's funny:

https://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=e3h6es6zh1c

Every argument I hear from the LGBTQ group is always full of logical fallacies and personal attacks. They want things that don't even make sense. Are they still arguing over pronouns? It's like they want to be protected from all criticism and be given special treatment for no reason other than that's what they want. You want these people on the media talking to our young? Influencing them? How about we get more scientists on the media rather than LGBTQ folks?

"and they shouldn't be forced to hide it. "

No one is forced to hide anything. You don't see atheists on the media any more often than you see LGBTQ people. However, No one is on this site saying that more atheists should be in the media so that people don't think it's weird or they should hide. You know why? Because no one really cares. Atheists aren't going around asking for special rights. People don't want to come out as such in their home because it may cause issues, But that's a separate topic. As someone who isn't gay I can't relate with those who go for their own gender, But that in no way makes them worthy of criticism. However, When these people come out and want rights that don't make sense, Attention that shows almost a mental disorder, And stand up with their stupid self-righteousness - there's no way you can sit there and tell me that this group should be on the media. What are they going to propagate? That they're special and should be called made up pronouns?

The LGBTQ group (as a public group) takes itself too seriously, And they make the dumbest claims you could possibly hope to hear. Obviously not all gays, Lesbians, Trans, Etc. Are like this, But the group as a whole is too unorderly and coherent for anyone to possibly suggest putting them out to the media to show they aren't "weird". It would be like Abraham Lincoln going out and making a speech about how he beat the south in the middle of the war - it's simply too soon. The group needs to calm down, And eventually settle in without the fuss they're making right now. THEN you can talk about slowly incorporating them onto the media to show that they're people, Just like everyone else. However, Even then, I don't see why that's necessary. If they've settled down, No one will think they're weird anymore!
Debate Round No. 1
lesibianpotato

Pro

Okay, I see were you are coming from. Kids often don't have sexual desires but they could have romantic ones ( I'm talking about pre-teens right now) if we show a lesbian couple in a kids show like we show straight couples it can help young kids understand that this is going to be a normal thing. I found a study about it right here. :
https://williamsinstitute. Law. Ucla. Edu/visualization/lgbt-stats/? Topic=LGBT#density
I understand we can't make every character LGBTQ+ but it would help if we could get more positive LGBTQ+ role model for the next generation. Kids can be trans but most don't go through surgery until they are older. Most people who go through a sex change do tell their partners. People with a sex change might be weird in your book, But its not really your business unless they are in your personal life like a partner or a parent or child. Contrary to popular believe their is a science to being trans. So male and female brains are different in a few ways. A trans man (biological woman) would have a brain closer to the male brain. Same with trans woman. Trans woman actually have to go through surgeries so they are closer to woman in physical prowess. Transitions often take more than "just putting on a wig". Some trans people shove it in people faces but most don't. LGBTQ people might get special treatment in some areas but in some countries you can be put in prison tortured and even executed for being gay. Even in countries where its allowed they don't have any protection on them meaning they or their kid could die because hospital and doctors can refuse them service on the bases that the mom is dating a girl. In other areas it could mean isolation for they LGBTQ+ individual. Its still a sadly common thing that parents disown their kids after their kids come out. I understand some discrimination is a product of free speech so we can't change that part. Sorry if this is to long or I'm rehashing the same points over and over again
zapshe

Con

"if we show a lesbian couple in a kids show like we show straight couples it can help young kids understand that this is going to be a normal thing"

They already do - but it shouldn't be propagated like this. We don't put cancer patients on T. V. Shows, Even though that's a normal thing. It's because it's not the majority of people. It's NOT the norm. You can have the occasional T. V. Show dedicated to a lesbian or gay couple, Or a T. V. Show that shows experimentation or has a gay/lesbian character. But saying to show a lesbian couple "like" a straight couple would falsely give the impression that the ratio of straight to lesbian is 1:1. Perhaps a nit-picky disagreement here.

"Kids can be trans but most don't go through surgery until they are older. "

This is going a bit too far. Understand that sexuality can be influenced by environment too. When a kid shows a hint that they may be "trans" and then become labelled as such, You're influencing their decision. The whole point of sexuality in this way is to do what feels natural - not was put in your head as a child. Labeling a KID as trans who hasn't even gone through puberty to become sexually aware or as cognitively capable sounds completely dishonest. This is like saying, "My child wants to become an astronaut when they're older! " Yea, But then they grow up and see things differently, Don't they? The issue here is that no one will label the child as an astronaut just because that's what they felt like being while you think that it's fine to label them as trans for this same reason.

https://www. Ncbi. Nlm. Nih. Gov/pmc/articles/PMC5953012/

"Existing literature demonstrates that there is no solid evidence for the differences in the function/structure of the brain between children and adolescents with and without GD"

"People with a sex change might be weird in your book, But its not really your business unless they are in your personal life like a partner or a parent or child"

They are pretty weird in my book and half the time they look weird too. However, This statement of yours isn't something I think even you'll agree with when I put it into context. I shouldn't care if someone with a sex change is/isn't allowed to reveal their sex at birth? This can affect me and my family. Saying I shouldn't care about people who get a sex change because it's not in my immediate family is like saying I shouldn't care about the KKK unless I have a black guy in my house.

"Contrary to popular believe their is a science to being trans"

There are physical differences between male and female brains and they aren't exactly very telling. From the same link as earlier:

"the results of brain studies in transgender people are largely contradictory"

"Some trans people shove it in people faces but most don't"

I'm not hating on trans people, They can just look kind of weird. Same way I'm not hating on people who get plastic surgery, But Jocelyn Wildenstein looks very weird. Again, Being trans doesn't mean you align with the LGBTQ group - though it makes it rather likely.

"LGBTQ people might get special treatment in some areas but in some countries you can be put in prison tortured and even executed for being gay"

I don't see the LGBTQ community doing anything for these people. Their main focus is shoving their sexuality down the throats of the country they're in.

"Even in countries where its allowed they don't have any protection on them meaning they or their kid could die because hospital and doctors can refuse them service on the bases that the mom is dating a girl"

Sources. Many civilized countries don't have medical institutions that are allowed to refuse services. Moreover, Again, I don't see the L group (I got tired of writing out the whole thing) doing anything in those countries. They aren't lobbying.

"I understand some discrimination is a product of free speech so we can't change that part"

And shouldn't. As I've said, There should not be any group of people exempt from being ridiculed. This keeps open dialogue and free thinking.

"Sorry if this is to long or I'm rehashing the same points over and over again"

No worries, You're fine.
Debate Round No. 2
lesibianpotato

Pro

One little thing. We DO put people with cancer in T. V shows/media. The fault in our stars, A walk to remember, My sister keeper, Alexa and Katie and BREAKING BAD. But that's off topic. LGBTQ main characters in everything would get exhausting
but about 4. 5% of American adults. I couldn't find a world study so lets assume that's the number world wide. That might not sound like a lot but remember the global population is about 7 billion. That's more than a million. Trans people are NOT the KKK. What I meant by that statement was its not really your business to know what every trans persons biological sex. I would John Oliver's talk about trans discrimination and his on about LGBTQ discrimination. Like most people you forget that even in America, Europe and Australia there is still a lot of discrimination that people ignore/forget about. (Some examples in the John Oliver videos. ) I'm going to add a kind reminder that there are crazies in every group. Since this is the last debate I'm writing good luck to you I hope you have a great life it's been a ton of fun debating with you.
zapshe

Con

"One little thing. We DO put people with cancer in T. V shows/media"

Yes, Occasionally, As I've said.

"LGBTQ main characters in everything would get exhausting"

Yea, It would be. They're already on shows and media occasionally - just as you may see cancer patients on occasionally.

"That's more than a million"

I've done the math before, Almost 14 million in the U. S.

"Trans people are NOT the KKK"

Just comparisons on the point I made, Not comparing them in any other way or claiming they're as bad.

"Like most people you forget that even in America, Europe and Australia there is still a lot of discrimination that people ignore/forget about. "

I don't doubt that. However, The approach taken by the LGBTQ is completely absurd. For example, Muslims go about it by trying to show that people are viewing them wrong and there's nothing wrong with being Muslim. However, The LGBTQ is trying to say that not only is there nothing wrong with being what they are, But they should also be granted certain privileges. And then they shove it in everyone's face how they deserve it.

"I'm going to add a kind reminder that there are crazies in every group"

This is a common argument which simply doesn't work here. If the crazies in this group were the outlier, How come they're getting their crazy ideas passed into legislature? Surely, They aren't the outliers.

"Since this is the last debate I'm writing good luck to you I hope you have a great life it's been a ton of fun debating with you. "

Hope your life is good too :)
Debate Round No. 3
56 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by zapshe 2 years ago
zapshe
"And our understanding of how valid survey data is lands far apart from one another"

Survey data is to give you an idea, Not to give you accurate percentages. I'm pretty sure this is widely accepted.

https://talentmap. Com/survey-reliability-vs-survery-validity-whats-the-big-deal/

The questions themselves can easily be reworded and get you different results:

"Consider this example of a misguided change to a valid question:

Valid Question: My organization inspires me to do my best work.
Misguided Question: I"m inspired to do my best work here at my organization. "

https://www. Zdnet. Com/article/the-real-time-data-disconnect-a-survey-of-reality-vs-perception/

"For those of you who believe that this disconnect is make believe or that I'm exaggerating it, The respondents couldn't even agree on the meaning of the term, Real time. "

https://www. Infosurv. Com/5-reasons-why-survey-respondents-don't-tell-the-truth/

This last link especially really goes through why statistics with a community like LGBTQ might come out exaggerated.

Surveying opinions is already known to produce an error margin. With this, It's more than just opinion. People frequently can disagree on little meanings and at what point they would consider something to be sexual assault or rape.

Anyway, That was a side thing.

"I wish you luck buddy, Thanks for the conversation. "

Same to you. This got too long to continue this way.
Posted by Phil-E-CheeseSteak 2 years ago
Phil-E-CheeseSteak
I think we have fundamental disagreements on reality and I just don't think its something we are gonna be capable of moving passed. Your view of what the LGBTQ community entails and my view of it are completely different, Our opinions on what counts as an extreme view or nonsensical legislation differ hugely, And our understanding of how valid survey data is lands far apart from one another. This is something I don't think can be figured out in a comment section, Typing format like this. I would require something like a more long form verbal discussion, Where we can focus in on the validity of each claim in real time without jumping around to other topics, And clarify each term we use one by one to even come close to closing the gap between our stances on the subject. I don't have time to keep going back and forth in this comment section any longer, But I wish you luck buddy, Thanks for the conversation.
Posted by zapshe 2 years ago
zapshe
"You realize there is a huge number of LGBTQ people who are in the closet out of the fear of being outed right"

Yes, I'm sure of that.

"This weird perception that most gay people are walking around with a gay flag on their back every day screaming, I'm gay, Is not accurate"

Not gays in particular. The LGBTQ community tends to though. They have that pride month - where I promise you they're not being modest. Again, I've said before that many gays/lesbians/etc. . DON'T align themselves with this group. They're trying to say that everyone who isn't straight is part of their group and movement, But that simply isn't true.

"I feel like you actually have no clue what these people are like, You just have a strawmanned version of them in your head that you constantly try to represent as the norm"

The EXACT opposite in fact. Many times you can't even tell someone is gay until you see them with their bf or such. These are not people who are likely part of the LGBTQ movement.

Again, I'm criticizing the LGBTQ movement and community that not all gays/lesbians/etc. . Align themselves with. The same way you can find women who are strong, Independent, And want equality while completely rejecting feminism. It's the same thing - I'm not attacking everyone who isn't straight, Far from it in fact. It's the movement itself which is driven by their members that I'm criticizing.

"Then it makes sense that stat would be 0"

I understood that, I was attacking the argument you made that they weren't reporting their crime for the reason that it wouldn't be deemed a hate crime. However, It still doesn't make sense for it to be 0 since there are still many places which would report it as a hate crime.

"I'm sorry I'll let you go through all your points"

No worries.
Posted by zapshe 2 years ago
zapshe
"the people you hear yelling the loudest are usually the people with the most extreme opinions"

And when the people who are yelling the loudest get legislature passed, They couldn't have been such extremists that others in the group didn't follow and support them.

"It absolutely is not a representative showing of the entire movement"

I'm judging more so by their accomplishments. And their accomplishments only serve to reflect the ideals that you say is an "outlier". What they have and are trying to accomplish as a group can't simply be from an outlier.

"Most of what LGBTQ organizations due is try to help give resources both health and financially to those who need them"

Show links. Other than having their own special LGBTQ suicide-hotline type thing, I haven't seen much help from them towards those who are LGBTQ. ALL I see them doing is fighting for "rights". I haven't seem programs that help their homeless. I haven't seen any of the kinds of programs/education that I spoke of earlier would help their struggling members. I don't see it - so link some to me if they exist.

"Don't fall into that trap, Criticize the ideas you disagree with but don't allow it to blind you"

This claim is valid in many other situations - but not this one. You can't say this about feminism, For example. As an organization, They aren't doing what you'd want them to and they go too far. Their ideals are perhaps noble, But that's just for show. I don't doubt they may do the occasional thing most would agree is good, But on the whole that's not what's happening. The same goes for the LGBTQ community - they simply aren't going the right direction. It's not bad versus good ideas. The organization itself is simply pushing constantly fairytale ideas. I'm saying they may likely do better things after they've settled down and they realize they're pushing people away.
Posted by zapshe 2 years ago
zapshe
"What is your evidence that LGBTQ people are lazier on average"

It was a joke really. I was saying it's more plausible that they're homeless for being lazy rather than because of their sexuality. Again, The LGBTQ community isn't helping these people find jobs by getting programs in to help them off the street - at least I haven't seen any. Instead, They blame the rest of the world and ask everyone else to conform to their ideals. That would be FINE, If they were actually helping their own people rather than flaunting surveys to claim how bad they're doing.

"your response is to give me a personal anecdote about a gay guy you feel was lazy and entitled"

I think you've made connections I wasn't insinuating. I was just sharing a story.

"You see LGBTQ as one thing, It's not"

It IS one thing. It's a single community - that you don't even have to be part of if you're gay/lesbian/otherwise. They've made many things, Like pride month (they dedicated a WHOLE month? ), Influenced legislature, Etc. . It's a single group making changes and asking for more - and you can't possibly agree with all that they're doing.

My anecdotes were for fun - NOT to make points. You CANNOT look at the LGBTQ community and all that it's doing, Then turn around and say, "Well, Not all of them are like that! " The things the community accomplishes REFLECTS on them. Let me give you an example I hope will be well understood:

A member of the KKK saves a black guy and Jew. He then claims that he may not like them, But that doesn't mean they should die. THIS guy would be the outlier! His actions wouldn't represent the entire KKK because of what the KKK does in GENERAL.

Now, You have the LGBTQ community pushing for laws and regulations that DON'T MAKE SENSE. They've even passed some as I've mentioned before. This means if you stand with them, You're aligning yourself with what they're doing. Same with feminism as I've compared before.
Posted by zapshe 2 years ago
zapshe
"their integration into larger studies"

This is a key point - because no reliable study would ever only have a survey to try and make a claim.

"You can't disregard survey based data as evidence"

I really didn't, Only claimed that they're likely an overestimate. I can't possibly state that this is a group without high numbers of sexual assaults - but the surveys would likely lead you to a falsely high number. Moreover, This is a group engaging in lifestyles and behaviors that make such things MUCH more likely to occur with them.

"You wouldn't see any increase in violence against LGBTQ members as opposed to the general population? "

Definitely. Religion is likely to lead the extremists to doing stuff like that. My claim is simply that it's an overestimate. I mean, Many people will experience violence in their lives. But when you're part of some minority group, You may feel that it was wrongly because of that. Again, Just an inaccuracy of surveys - especially with these types of questions which can easily give bias answers.

"Why don't you think it's possible that more religious or socially conservatives households might be inclined to kick out minors when they are outed as being LGBTQ"

Who outs these people? They do that very well by themselves. I'm sure you've already read what I typed about them not getting jobs. If you walk into an interview as you should, How COULD they differentiate you? IF they can differentiate you between someone who is or isn't in an interview - you WEREN'T professional. Some satire:

https://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=Uo0KjdDJr1c

Again, Not that they're not being discriminated in some places - I'm sure they are. But to outright claim that they're not getting hired on mass due to their sexual preferences would be a complete lie. No employer should even be aware of your sexuality when deciding to hire you if you're being professional.
Posted by zapshe 2 years ago
zapshe
"The fact that LGBTQ members face greater rates of sexual violence is something that has been established in tons of literature"

Through surveys which I'll again say are likely over-estimating the statistic. In fact, Studies will use surveys to compare against hard evidence in order to reveal how bias such surveys are. For example, You give a population a test and then survey them on how they think they did. You then compare their answers with their actual score and you get a surprising result.

Again, I'm NOT saying they don't experience this, I'm saying the statistics are very likely over exaggerations.

"the differentiation was a linguistic one"

Experiencing rape and being raped are different how? You said it was a linguistic difference and didn't explain how.

"You realize there is nothing wrong with collecting data via survey"

What? Surveys can be highly inaccurate. For example, They can't accurately predict elections. Once you're giving a survey to a group of people who almost seem to take pride that they have problems to yell about - how confident can you be in those survey statistics? AGAIN - I'm not saying they don't have high numbers, But that what you're lead to believe in likely a misleading overestimate. But we have to look at the obvious - which is that even if you get a population that you somehow confirmed was not raped, You'd still have some of them saying that they were.

"Do you think people lie at mass on these kinds surveys and that every expert in the fields of sociology, Psychology, And economics are just unaware or don't account for any of that within the methodology? "

They don't lie on mass - you have massive bias. Again, This is well known and that's WHY these expert field take these things into account when reviewing the data - because they've long ago realized that there are margins of error. But you can't account for it all.
Posted by zapshe 2 years ago
zapshe
"Homeless women " including the 'hidden homeless' " are particularly vulnerable to multiple forms of victimization including forced, Coerced, Or manipulated sexual activity. Levels of victimization that women endure before, During, And after episodes of homelessness remain enormously high, Often occurring in multiple settings at the hands of multiple perpetrators. For example, 92% of a large, Racially diverse sample of homeless mothers had experienced severe physical and/or sexual violence at some point in their lives. Thirteen percent of another sample of homeless women reported having been raped in the past 12 months, And half of these women were raped at least twice. "

https://vawnet. Org/material/no-safe-place-sexual-assault-lives-homeless-women

There's no protecting a group like the LGBTQ from these statistics when they're a group that is so heavily engaged affairs that LEAD to these statistics. Going back to my bi friend - HE WORKS! He ruined many opportunities he had and ended up needing to get a job. He didn't go into the interview with purple hair, Ripped jeans, And a desire to promote his sexuality - and he got hired. It's that simple - you have to be professional. So instead of the movement blaming their problems on society, Maybe they should work to get members free/cheap classes on professionalism and how to get a job. Perhaps even programs on getting clean and avoiding dangerous situations - JUST a thought.

"This isn't true, It has been reported"

Give sources - it's no the easiest to find sources that aren't giving you surveys but actual reports.

"You see the problem here don't you, Neither of our anecdotal experiences here matter"

I explicitly said that obviously my experience isn't a testament to anything.

"The official number for the percentage of rape accusations that are false is about 2-10 percent"

Again, Sources. Rape accusations that have gone to court? Or on surveys?
Posted by zapshe 2 years ago
zapshe
The key difference is that a survey simply asks - and the person filling it out or being interviewed simply gives an answer. If they don't report it to the police and have the DNA evidence - what's the point? They've just let a rapist walk free to do it again - right? Many argue there's a "rape culture", I argue that you can't catch rapists when you don't report them. Again, You can't just take people's word for it - otherwise every guy accused of rape would be in jail when they clearly haven't.

The LGBTQ community is a group that is also known for:

Alcohol and drug use
Homelessness
Poverty

usatoday sarah-mcbride-gay-survivors-helped-launch-me-too-but-rates-lgbt-abuse-largely-overlooked

If you have a group of people that is known for their rates of these things, Can you be surprised when they have higher rates of sexual assault/rape? I've seen the lifestyle many in this group live out - it's not healthy. They don't even look for a job most of the time. And when they do, They go in no condition to be hired. I have a very close friend who's bi, But for the life of him can't get his act together when it really counts. It has very little to do with discrimination from what I've seen.

So I'm not claiming they're not a group with some degree of high (though definitely not as high as the surveys would lead you to believe - you can't just accept the survey and then disregard the reported rape) sexual assault/rape statistics - but many are practically homeless:
Posted by Phil-E-CheeseSteak 2 years ago
Phil-E-CheeseSteak
"This argument doesn't make sense to me. It was RAPE, A crime in-of ITSELF. Why does it need to be registered as a hate crime before they report it? The point is to jail the rapist. . . ! "
This was literally in regards to the stat you brought up like it was a silver bullet, If all the rapes of LGBTQ people aren't held under hate crimes, Then it makes sense that stat would be 0, Because it was specifically in regards to hate crime rapes. I'm sorry I'll let you go through all your points, It just hurts seeing you completely misunderstand my arguments
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