The Instigator
FettucciniBanini
Pro (for)
The Contender
policy-debate
Con (against)

Religion, As well as Theism, Has value

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Debate Round Forfeited
policy-debate has forfeited round #5.
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/26/2019 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 748 times Debate No: 122264
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (47)
Votes (0)

 

FettucciniBanini

Pro

When I claim that Theism has its' value, I mean the mere fact that its' origins consist of explaining humanity is enough to explore its' meaning and see what we as humans can do with that
policy-debate

Con

Theism or religion have no value to humankind. Its only use has been to provide answers for those too lazy to actually seek them or to comfort those unable to face the truth. You may say "oh well that IS a value" but net benefit amounts to the negative which means no, It is not a value. So no, Religion has no value.
Debate Round No. 1
FettucciniBanini

Pro

Let me offer you my reasoning, Religion may not have value in the sense of finding concrete truths, Which I assume you mean empirical scientific truth, Which would be inherently correct anyway. When it comes to human philosophy, Understanding the concept of God and literature, And testimonies of evil, I think one can offer great insight to society today without the fumbled interpretation of a direct active God. Society may benefit greatly if we come to terms with our understanding of Scripture, The lord and the authors of each book of the Bible, Life and its" metaphorical, Literary stance. I think the trouble with people who comprehend God as some being that will act on human command simply leaves the believer frustrated and doubtful if their God even listens, Or exist, A lot have taken scripture to the amount as of Gods word and in result in a deceitful dictatorship, Agendas, And bigotry. Of course, God is not mute, The Bible has records of his command, He is just not what modern interpretation makes him out to be. We all have our own truths, Some objective others not. Whilst people have flawed concepts doesn't mean they are wrong for believing. Comfort is different from what I call denial. Heck, I would not even call using Biblical guidance comfort, It is just a mechanism for finding the truth. Truth situationally, Not objectively, Though possible. Denial is merely a result of poor interpretation. I will explain further into the debate though for now, I will keep it concise.
policy-debate

Con

All that religion does is withhold humanity from facing actual truth. "Comprehending God" does nothing for anybody. It allows for people to believe that there is some magical, Omniscient, And omnipotent being beyond ourselves that lives up in the sky and watches our every move, Always making sure that we were okay and happy. Using any form of religion is ultimately either for comfort, Control, Sloth, Ego, Or some combination of the four.

Comfort:
People are often unable to face the horrors of life and mortality. Instead of accepting that when I die, I will be nothing. My life will ultimately conclude with me buried in a wooden box in the dirt. No thoughts. No memories. No movement. A lot of people cannot acknowledge this. Even as I type this out, The thought is rather scary. But I know that it is the truth. And many other people find comfort in some kind of "ignorance is bliss". In this case, It's more like denial is bliss. If you are stuck in a bad situation, You can take comfort in the thought that someone is up there watching out for you. Et cetera, Et cetera.

Control:
Leaders use religion as a means of controlling their subordinates. Dictating that some actions are "sinful" and will condemn one to an eternity in fiery torment will most likely cause people to never perform that action again because of a variation of Pascal's Wager.

Sloth:
Many people are simply too lazy to go out and actually find the answers that they are looking for. An example: the Catholic church in Galileo's time. They condemned the idea of a heliocentric solar system and instead conformed to the belief that everything revolved around the Earth because God willed it. If a child asks why the sky is blue or why the leaves are green, Almost every single person will opt to tell the child that it is that way just because that is the way that God wanted it instead of taking the time to explain that chlorophyl catalyzes a reaction with the sunlight that turns the leaves a color that we perceive and categorize as green.

Ego:
This one goes hand-in-hand with control but from a subordinate's point of view. I can say that, Because I do not eat meat (except for fish for some reason) for some Fridays in the spring, I have earned a place in an eternal paradise. That, Because I say that people who are gay will be subjected to an eternity of scorching torture, I am morally superior to you and everyone else.

I ask of you, Why do you believe in God? I can guarantee you that it will fall into one of these categories (except for control because that is used by leaders who are losing their position of power.
Debate Round No. 2
FettucciniBanini

Pro

What you consider to be the truth is actually reasonable. Of course, Our brains are responsible for cognition and senses and since our brains stop working after death, All those components would cease to exist. Death is a state of unconsciousness. This is only science can illustrate. Religions like the Jehovah's Witnesses even claim that from dust you are to dust you will return Meaning There is no eternal damnation or heavenly welcomings in their view.
Your view actually centers itself over realism and empirical knowledge however it is not the truth, Objectively. Now I am not interested in filling in the gaps of human knowledge with God or his Bible, I will say that we do not and will never know what happens after death. Knowing this allows us to come to terms with our life and capabilities and improving the very fields that may or may not have given us our beliefs.

Now, This means you would have to have a proper interpretation and comprehension of what you are believing. Leaders such as Popes, Politicians, Parents, And even civilians are no exception. I again will not dictate how you should comprehend a material but nor should anyone read the material and stick to a narrow narrative. To illustrate, Knowledge needs to be acquired through interpretation and comprehension of said medium. You need to demonstrate what/how they are talking about. As these kinds of leaders, My hypothesis is that they are prone, Maybe even pressured to be convincing to the point where they take materials such as welfare, Parenthood, Anything personal so that they can get a grip on the audience. Of course, This is terribly exposed to further manipulation. It breeds control and I have no intentions of dispelling that fact. The very essence on what you are trying to explain all boils down to, How they even came up with such an antagonistic system from something like the bible. Their existence is nothing more than to suit their greed but does that mean God would promote such madness?

I find it a little funny how you have concluded that people would answer in such folklore manners. If the child wanted to know why the sky was blue of course people will give a linear answer as to how. The situation you have prescribed would make sense if people thought that God sends hurricanes killing lives to test their faith. Unlike abstract concepts, Humans are not quick as to fill their curiosity with God, Zeus or Ghosts. If they did then they are most likely pushing down an innate trait which is a detriment. I am incredibly sure people take that as fact. Even if they didn't believe, They most likely would respect that.

For morality, People are very grey about it. No one really, At least what I have seen, Is intrigued by having rigorous verbal abuse toward their peers. That's incredibly superficial. I remember my music teacher explaining the power of Jazz and the title of one song made him say he didn't like it. Glitter and be gay was the title and I also know that even if for example their child had sin within them, Parents would still love them. Kicking children out of the house is one despicable thing. I do know that unlike behaviors like that, Parents still love them. Nothing is truly binary. . .
policy-debate

Con

Ok you are literally just either agreed with or ignored each and every one of my arguments.

1. Yes my beliefs are centered around science as that is concrete and fact
2. Yes, Religion is used as control, That was my earlier point
3. It needs not my logic or guesswork, There are countless instances in which people HAVE answered in "such folklore manner".
4. You clearly haven't seen a lot. Literally just read through the history books and you will find COUNTLESS examples of how people have used Scripture to justify terrible immoral acts.

You also neglected to answer my question. Why are you religious?
Debate Round No. 3
FettucciniBanini

Pro

The only instances where I actually agree with are people using scripture as a form of madness, However with that reasoning would that mean God and the scripture would promote such madness. I do not think I ignored your arguments, I thought that your points were mainly meant to build an exhausted impression of religion because of the actions of such. How they would come to such concepts from the bible, I would have to look into that. Religion may have been a detriment to people not because it withholds humanity; just from humans experiencing Biblical literature, Lessons and such because of mainstream interpretation. Which leads to some explaining things in "folklore manner" apart from the majority who understands the difference between natural causes and divine/literary answers. This has led to many disappointments within Christians but I will only proceed if it is necessary.

As for answering your question: It"s hard to say. I do not perceive myself as religious nor atheist; apart from being spiritual. I have gone through being religious, Atheist to a state of neutrality in a matter of times so I"m not sure. If I was religious (on my own terms) I would not be a controlling lazy individual that fills the human knowledge of God. That"s a cult leader. I would be someone who would hope to provide progressive knowledge of and clearing out misconceptions however I truly would not know.

Why you would ask me that only proves to me how unfounded you think of religion much more theism, Though that"s up to you. It also seems to me you use science as some belief system (which explains certain things)when it is far from that. I said empirical knowledge, Not science. Science is a means of testing, Observing and theories (scientifically of course). You seem analytical.

With this said, We are close to the end of this debate and I'm not interested in a bibliography session. Religion may have been seen to distribute hate and ignorance but in itself, It is a book of stories filled with almost unique texts and mysteries. Doesn't make it immune to criticism, It just means there's more for discussion, New views and such.
policy-debate

Con

Ok, I can work with "spiritual". Do you, Or do you not, Believe in God/a higher power?

Absolutely not, I was born and raised a Roman Catholic so I know about the inner workings of religion and theism. I ask it so as to further prove my points.
Debate Round No. 4
FettucciniBanini

Pro

I am not too sure, But if I had to choose then I would believe in God. Why? I have just come to see the errors in my thinking when I was non-religious and I see things that a lot of my peers seem to miss. Additionally, I grew up with it, So it affects me. Interesting you were raised Catholic and the reason why you asked about my spirituality is to further your point. That was my point in the original debate, It was only to prove your own interpretation of Religion, Like me being religious confirms that. Though it's good to know you understand the inner-workings of religion I hope you make good use of that
This round has not been posted yet.
Debate Round No. 5
47 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Turk082 2 years ago
Turk082
Religion most certainly has value.
Posted by FettucciniBanini 2 years ago
FettucciniBanini
Plus I could also say that you"re an enabler for civilians dying at the hands of the unlawful because you don"t support gun right but that"s not in your mind huh. . .
Posted by FettucciniBanini 2 years ago
FettucciniBanini
And that"s actually a bold assertion, Religion being caused all of the worlds problems. You do realize there are people called maniacs right? Who use anything as a form of agenda and that medium isn"t at fault because of them right? Of course, You only like to see things that make sense to you
Posted by FettucciniBanini 2 years ago
FettucciniBanini
If you"ve actually read my debate I did answer my question but I guess that isn"t enough for you. Just because a question is simple doesn"t make it not complex.
Posted by FettucciniBanini 2 years ago
FettucciniBanini
And hypocrisy! You claim I think I know everything about religion yet here you are! Summing up such a narrow view. If you think I"m without morals, Then you probably think that about every theists. If so, How come you haven"t been killed by a Christian? Right because they know that the presence of horror in anything doesn"t cause one to act out. There"s violence everywhere and visual examples of horror yet you don"t go out and acting barbaric
Posted by FettucciniBanini 2 years ago
FettucciniBanini
Jesus! Making accusations! The difference between you and me is that I can actually distinguish between the presence of horror and the support of horror in literature.
Posted by Crypt_19 2 years ago
Crypt_19
backwardseden,

your medal's in the mail
Posted by backwardseden 2 years ago
backwardseden
No I refuse to listen to uneducated people like you who think they know everything that there is to know about religion, When they know nothing. You still cannot answer the simplest of questions "why believe"? Here's the wide and vast difference between you and me and because of this difference, This will be my final post to you. . . You wholeheartedly believe that greed, Violence, War, Pain, Suffering, Famine, Disease, Death, Bloodshed, Etc is all perfectly fine because religion, Especially christianity is the #1 cause of all of it. Here's something for your meaty brain for you to doublecheck. . . There's not been 50 years of peace, Not anywhere, Not during any time, At any occasion since this god's inception. AND this god has free reign to commit murder to babies, Children, And pregnant women (abortions) in which you are perfectly fine with a supreme deity committing these atrocities as well in which case according to texts he has. 2, 821, 364 murders to be exact in which is completely immoral. One, Just one murder for a supreme deity is completely immoral. But you cannot get it through your thick f--king head that NOBODY NEEDED TO DIE. What is wrong with you in that you believe in hate and evil, Just as ALL CHRISTIANS DO, NO EXCEPTIONS, NONE, And not in peace? So don't tell me in any possible way that I don't listen to YOU, When its you that is entirely bonkers and clearly cannot think straight. Strange isn't it that nearly all Native American Indian tribes, The aborginies, The Inca, Gaia Mother Earth, The Inuet, Buddhists, Hindu's etc strange isn't that they didn't practice nor preach war nor hate anywhere near as much as christians
"You"ve got 3 religions of peace all worshiping the same god of love and forgiveness, And yet they"ve been at war, Continuously, Ever since their inceptions. " Aron Ra He's right.
"More people have been killed in the name of god than for any other reason. " George Carlin He's right.
Don't even dream about responding. Bye.
Posted by FettucciniBanini 2 years ago
FettucciniBanini
As if, Good night to you. You are completely stubborn and refuse to listen. All of this is your opinion and I can"t change that. Next time you straw man me or make excuses I will come back even stronger because I do not tolerate ignorance.
Hate debating with me all you want, You still manage to loose over forty debates and call me horrible at "psychoanalysis" when you"re only line of reasoning won"t suit you in the real world
Posted by backwardseden 2 years ago
backwardseden
@Crypt_19 - Didn't read it.
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