The Instigator
billsands
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
EverydayWolf
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Socialist parties in the NOrdic nations have created veritable utopias

Do you like this debate?NoYes+1
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 0 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/6/2020 Category: Politics
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 405 times Debate No: 123809
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (17)
Votes (0)

 

billsands

Pro

Western Europe is still very Capitalistic, But the sort of Capitalism forge in societies dominated by socialist thinking has created ideal hybrids
EverydayWolf

Con

Ideal hybrids?
Far from it. All the western economies have proven over and over again they are unsustainable.

You could call them ideal temporary utopias in decline. And they are, But still the best system we found so far, Maybe.
What can you say in your defense? That nothing else was yet invented that is better than that, Maybe.

We could also say that the industrial age set the environment to end slavery. That does not mean the industrial age was not one of the most painful eras to live in. But still it was what we had.

But looking at the debt, Looking at the birthrates. The overindulgement, Materialism, Overconsumption of the western nations, It leaves much to be desired.

None of those nations can preserve their utopias without a backup of many other countries that supply these economies with both raw materials and immigration. Without immigration the western economies would have collapsed a few decades ago. And this goes also to the entertainment industry. Its basically a whole culture that to keep going has to keep its head burried in the sand, Drugged and drunk so to not think of the reality of our human condition.

The ideology of Europe. Is that of the religion of equality of gender, Equality of outcome. Its a dangerous ideology, That can be kept over shaky grounds.

The people are consuming more psychiatric medication than ever. Cities like London, Paris, And Berlim are unrecognizable for the most.

Malmo and Stockholm im not familiarized with because i havent been there. I was in the others. But from what i have heard they are even worse off.

Of course if you are a rich and you live in your gated community, Of course you can afford to be a champagne socialist.

But the lower classes cannot. And like always have to deal with the delusions that are imposed on them by the upper classes that arrogantly deny them even the opportunity to decide what they want for their own country.

The people are extremelly unmotivated. If we didnt have all this tech, That we got from past generations that did not live in our utopia. Then we absolutely would not have a chance against other cultures, Military speaking.

Most people grow up on drugs and hedonism, Depression, And all kinds of problems. Can't afford a house, And can't find work, Or have to compete against many others for a bone. Women are not suitable for long term relationships or marriage. And men are not interested in that too.
So to solve the problem we need a supply of migrants so to keep the illusion in our economy that we have growth, Pressure and competition. Nice hack.

Daddy government is there to throw a bone at you, If things get too bad, But all the rest that are supposed to be your natural rights, Those are gone in the name of stability. You should not be treated like a child, But you should have the means to make your own decisions and carve your own path in life, Rather than being safe but under control.

What do i mean by this? The story is old. We could not simply blame it all on this politician from the left, Or another from the right. Or some other scapegoat. We are the result of a chain of events. You can't also judge the west by its past, Or its present, Its a cycle. And we know where this is going, So just because we are in the times of milk and honey, That does not mean that to have this, Someone else before struggled a lot, Or we will struggle a lot in the future, When it turns bad. What will in the end represent the image of the west for the future civilizations, We don't know.

The things we take for granted here now, Were not available to us not even 5 decades ago. Its too much of a short time to say this is the ideal thing. This can all end like the soviet union. But so far, With our extensive and rather expensive social control instituitions we have been able to keep going, Even though the people can sense something is wrong, Or unnatural.

But all societies and all civilizations are in a certain sense a coping mechanism, And unnatural to true human nature. We are living unnatural lifestyles, With unnatural diets, And we need toxic levels of entertainment, Pop-science, Expensive medicine, Pornography, Plastic surgery, Theather politics etc, Etc. To keep us happy, And to feel good in the midst of the chaos. Our bodies resent it. Our bodies resent this as well as they resent communism. Of course this is better. But still would not call it ideal.

Most people are incredibly simplistic. And will try to zoom in, Or blame or aprove specific parts of a culture. When in reality we are organic, And societies and cultures are organic. Therefore they rise and fall.

The combination of capitalism and socialism in Europe is yet to show its uglier face, But if it was ideal then the people would drowning so much in opioids. Socialism is just a new word for communism, And give it a pinch of capitalism, And it's basically a good joke, Where it is communism when its convenient to me, But capitalism when its not, Me that im from the upper class, I will call it ideal if it gives me power and keeps you happy in your bread and circus unable to even word what the is wrong with the world around you. Communism ignores basic human nature, For power, Stability and instant results, While ignoring the long term effects. Capitalism works so long as there is always a new place to go and get more stuff.

Therefore, I would say a more accurate statement would be say, Its better than what else could be. But far from ideal, Because it will very soon collapse.

Hope you give me a good answer. Thanks.
Debate Round No. 1
billsands

Pro

They have sustained themselves for 100 years, Explain how that is not sustainable, THE USA and its inequality is unsustainable, You culture is a rotting corpse
EverydayWolf

Con

I explained it all above. You did not provided any counter arguments because you know what i said is true and you have nothing to say about it.

You said 100 years. When in reality most of Europe was very different even 4 decades ago. 4 decades ago you had still fascist regimes in Europe in southern Europe. Some of these only existed because of the first failed attempts to implement similar unsustainable utopias, That are so delusional that then it causes a whole population to start believing again in fascism. No different than what is happening right now again. And you socialists/communism never learn. You don't understand that you are the only thing that gives victory, Relevance and power to the extreme right.

To add into my first comment. We had two major world wars. Our capital cities are ridden with crime, Drug traficking and corruption, Our politicians are all corrupt and liars, Not a single one of them is trustworthy and is sincerely trying to improve things, They only want more voters and talk for immediate gains. If you don't know about this you must be living in a bubble in your house bought by your parents far away from everything.

To avoid repeating myself readers and voters, Please refer to my first answer, Where i explain all in more detail. This was just to underline the issue again, Not that he actually deserved an answer with the low effort bait to make me waste my time saying it all again. Thanks.
Debate Round No. 2
billsands

Pro

Well the accusations you make are subjective Northern Europe is in fact the least corrupt place on earth according to the Corruption Perceptions Index, And World"s Safest Countries
SafeAround has compiled and analyzed data from several public sources to make a safety index that allows to rank the world"s countries by safety (100=perfectly safe; 0=very dangerous). Find more details on the page about the World.
According to almost all safety indexes the nations with the least amount of crime are denamrk icleand and new zealand certainly not the USA, So according to the dats i have and can produce at the drop of a hat, Europe is safe, It is notr corrupt and according to the legantum propserity index? Denamrk and other Northern European nations are the most prosperous econmcally, So you sir are wrong about everything.
EverydayWolf

Con

That is a very overall estimation. Anyone who has been personally to Malmo or Stockholm, Or lived there, Will tell you that some neighborhoods you can't even enter, And the police does not go there. And im sure this was not a thing before the "ideal capitalism/socialism" took over.
The same pattern in pretty much all capitals of western Europe. Because every single country of western Europe has been evolving into a capitalist/socialist society for decades, And we are all coping with that. What could possibly go wrong?

Nothing matters now. And it will get worse. Epidemics of single mothers. Extreme consumption. Addiction to opioids. Complete destruction of the family unit, And the economy working at half the efficiency of what use to be in the past.

Now this does not invalidate that the nordic countries are in fact the safest and the least corrupt places on earth, But they were so before your "ideal socialism", And the fact that it is that ideal socialism combined with the savage capitalism that is destroying the integrity of these countries. And that was the original argument, Which now you are changing to a different theme, As if i said that the nordic countries are not good. They are good. But as they are right now, With that socialism, They won't be for too long, And everyone knows this. It is not a coincidence that there are winds of far right in Europe, Thats a symptom too, If things were so great, That phenonmenon would not happen again, Even with all the consciousness among the masses to be afraid of fascist tendencies. It is really a desperate situation for a lot of people, And we can't just ignore it, Because ignoring it is exactly what gives absolute power to dictators once the people gets tired and decide to put their hopes in the hands of one man.

It is irrelevant if nordic countries are safe and progressive and so on. If their culture and their way of doing things will die anyways, Replaced by waves of much needed immigrants to keep the numbers stable, Like a quick desperate fix, For a problem that it seems they don't even know what to do about. As if they did not anticipate the economical and social implications of said reforms in society. As if they thought the short term gains would stay forever, And that men would keep marrying and working like in traditional times, Despite having now zero authority and zero relevance, In every aspect and area of life, Unless they are a celebrity or a super rich. Then absolutely they can buy appreciation or project it, But even that is dull, And even those at the top, Secretly resent the status quo.

The same could be said of South Korea. And Japan but on a whole different level. They are already in a mess due to the economical and social repercurssions of this phase of the cycle of civilizations.

We could say nothing is less corrupt, Cleaner, And with less crime than Japan. But we forget societies are organic, And ever changing, Especially these days. So good old Japan will certainly be gone too, If they keep going like that.

Japanese young men are very unmotivated, Not marrying and not having families/kids. Im not criticizing their options, Certainly there is a reason for that, That we will not discuss here.

Their economy is suffering with that. And Japan does not resort to immigration politics like Europe has been doing for its own survival, So they will sink even worse than the west. You can look at the suicide rates in Korea. There is a bridge in Seoul where everyday men go there to jump. A ideal society that needs this to happen to keep going, Is not ideal. Its a lie. You were told lies. People are dying everyday everywhere where society evolves into that, They kill themselves, Or they try to slowly kill themselves with drugs and other things. Thats a symptom, And thats a sign that only the tyrants willfully ignore.

Suicide is the leading cause of death for men under 50 in the UK. Let that sink in.

In other words, The fact nordic/western countries are the least corrupt is certainly not because of champagne socialism mixed with savage capitalism. On the contrary thats exactly what is causing the decline of these countries. And they are so desperate with the economy and the low birthrates, They can't do nothing but import migrant men from cultures that would not hesitate to put an end to such utopias.

So if the these countries are still that good. Maybe they are in many places. What im arguing is that, It is irrelevant for a country to be a paragon of quality of life, The best tech, And all the materialism, If they are in a twilight zone where all of that will be gone, Because it is not sustainable and they are, If i can call it that, Morally broken.

Therefore Socialism/Capitalism is not the reason why these countries are or were good, On the contrary. And Socialism mixed with Capitalism, Is just good to cause cognitive dissonance on the masses, Who then don't know exactly what type of disease is affecting their society, You don't know how to identify your enemy.

Western countries whether we talk about northern Europe, Or America are the biggest consumers of opioids.
These are utopian societies where we think we are great, Yet we feel bad and we don't even know why. It turns out, The freedom of money, Material resources, Etc. . . Etc. . . Is not that important for happiness. And people are way more happy in southern countries like Portugal or Spain, (and they are more corrupt) than any of those nordic countries.

When we mention corruption. There are many types of corruption. The nordic countries are morally bankrupt. And their society will die, And will be replaced. Oh yeah, "but they were so great". Talking about losing but on your own terms, You are still going to lose.

It might sound at first that im being too extreme and too critical of our modern societies. Im not. Personally i enjoy living in the west and only hoped this could last longer, Or perhaps we can still find a middle ground. Or somewhere we will understand that not all that freedom is free. And that maybe we will have to adjust, And learn to respect the natural laws.

I'm 100% grateful that i have lived to watch all of this happen, And learn. And that society went through this, And experimented it. I would be very opposed to a dogmatic society stuck in the tradcon era, Where simply put, We were no different than childreen, Protected from the truth by religion and conservativism, That only works because we are blind.

But now we saw. And we know. And we should be very grateful that we have the power and the experience to know what does not work. Thats how we have a chance to learn.

Many were the past generations with many questions unanswered. Or blindly following religions, Afraid of actually analyzing the truth.

But we did so. We have tasted the forbidden fruit. And we don't have to ever resort to a religion to face another crysis or another dark ages, Hopefully. We know, And the governments are obviously aware of the path we are going. I suggest you study an interesting experiment, Called the Mouse Utopia Experiment by John Callun. All societies rise and fall.

I will end this debate by stating that socialism/capitalism is not by itself bad or negative, But it is not the ideal utopia either. Its just one step of the final phase of a civilization. Its a coping. The romans also had that phase. They had nice and shiny things, But their economy and birthrates declined soon, The motivation of men ruined, The family unit, Military and the society morallly broken.

Wasnt just that exact environment that prompted the rise of Christianity, It certainly was. Isnt there a correlation between the Christianity in Rome and Islam right now in Europe? There is. Why would men that have everything they could have materially speaking, Decide that "To Ceasar whats Ceasar", And take up a completely different stance? Its biology. Its our nature. We are not supposed to live like sheep. We resent it, And we know that is a death sentence of itself.
Debate Round No. 3
17 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by billsands 2 years ago
billsands
and no the black plague did not give us anything. It delayed the enlightenment it didnt create it. . The modern industrial society was born by the same thoughts that gave us jacobinism if you have indoor plumging and centrla heating you can thank some french leftist who put your lots heads on pikes
Posted by billsands 2 years ago
billsands
no man is an island go live on an island by yourself see how that works man is by nature tribal communal you don't find lone humans like you find lone wolves, You don't even find lone wovles even wolves form packs i don't have to utopia you. . You sir are a defective cell in the body of man go off on your own, You will die off and if not we will just execute your progeny you can't stop us on your own can you. . The very fact you have to act as a group to stop us proves your whole world view is laughably insane
Posted by EverydayWolf 2 years ago
EverydayWolf
"When someone steals another's clothes, We call them a thief. Should we not give the same name to one who could clothe the naked and does not? "
You said this. You are a religious man. We can't debate religious people. There is no space for logic if it is preceded by dogma.
The clothes you want to give to the poor, Are not clothes. Material resources are the god of the poor. And that god was sold to them, To enslave them in exchange of their true freedom in the wild.

Communism, Christianity, Capitalism, Fascism are coping mechanisms we humans developed to deal with how the things turned out in our world after the holocene extinction. We will invent more things, Create more machines, And try to cope with the changes we cause in our environment and with our increasing numbers that we are doomed to never be able to stop.
The black plague was what ended the dark ages. Where would we be if it was not for the black plague, Ask yourself.
Do you love humanity? This world. Nature and the animals? Or do you love the artificial society we created, That has been a degeneracy since the first day? Don't you communism me, Don't you fascism me. Leave man alone. For each man is fighting his own battle. Your utopias are just garbage to enslave people, People that are already suffering and coping.
You talk about clothes, Yet many tribes need little to no clothes. You talk about material resources, And bread on the plate. When our food use to be free, And abundant in the wild. And there was no wheat and no bread around, Yet everyone had plenty to eat, And plenty of time to relax. Until the hoards of animals were gone, And soon enough, Christianity arrived. And soon enough we were no longer admiring nature, The sun, Hunting and loving life for its activity, But rather worshipping pale metaphors, That are nothing but replacement drugs for our now gone nature and freedom, Those are the religions and every ideology that keeps society going.

You hate human beings, You hate nature and
Posted by billsands 2 years ago
billsands
The fallacy of composition arises when one infers that something is true of the whole from the fact that it is true of some part of the whole (or even of every proper part). For example: "This tire is made of rubber, Therefore the vehicle to which it is a part is also made of rubber. " This is fallacious, Because vehicles are made with a variety of parts, Many of which may not be made of rubber.

This fallacy is often confused with the fallacy of hasty generalization, In which an unwarranted inference is made from a statement about a sample to a statement about the population from which it is drawn.

The fallacy of composition is the converse of the fallacy of division; it may be contrasted with the case of emergence, Where the whole possesses properties not present in the parts.
Posted by billsands 2 years ago
billsands
EVERYTHING YOU CAN NOT SERVE TWO MASTERS GOD AND MONEY
https://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=5k6_ZJRjwbs
Posted by billsands 2 years ago
billsands
Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, Go, Sell your possessions and give to the poor, And you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, Follow me. "
Jesus and the rich young man - Wikiquote
https://en. Wikiquote. Org " wiki " Jesus_and_the_rich_young_man
https://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=5k6_ZJRjwbs it isnt a choice you either do it or you go to hell
Posted by billsands 2 years ago
billsands
"When someone steals another's clothes, We call them a thief. Should we not give the same name to one who could clothe the naked and does not? The bread in your cupboard belongs to the hungry; the coat unused in your closet belongs to the one who needs it; the shoes rotting in your closet belong to the one who has no shoes; the money which you hoard up belongs to the poor. "

R13; Basil the Great
Posted by billsands 2 years ago
billsands
where in the bible does it say any of gods comandments are voluntary
Posted by billsands 2 years ago
billsands
the system isnt collapsing and the bible commands us to pay for the needs of others, Are you an athiest because nordic societies are based more on the lutheran religion than on marx, You may clain to be a man of god but you are not, You adhere to the words of an athist jewish cow named ayn rand she poisoned the world with the drugs you comlain about oh and btw nordic nations aren't awash in opiate your disgusting SATANIC USA is YOU poor lost american fool
Posted by EverydayWolf 2 years ago
EverydayWolf
The nordic countries are in fact socialist/capitalist, As the OP mentioned. Everything in the nordic countries scream of socialism. Socialism is a light version of communism. Communism ignores basic laws of human nature, And wishes to destroy the natural balance in a society for the sake of short term gains and stability. Everything in socialism and communism is unnatural and artificial. All the money they give to someone, They are taking it from others. The motivation of an economy is methodically destroyed by such practices.

No man is motivated to work, Or wishes prosperity on society that forces him to pay for others well being, Regardless if said society benefits him or respects him in any way. Forcing benevolence and equality has the exact opposite. I don't even know why you can't see that.
The population is drowning in opioids. Racism and religion is making a come back. Men and women can't form families. Kids are fatherless and educated by mass media and the state.
You are living in a dystopia and you are so brainwashed you can't begin to understand it, And you defend it.

It is scary that the majority of individuals are like you and willfully walk into the slaughterhouse, Defend their own slaughterhouse, And want everyone else to go into the same slaughterhouse.

Anyone with a brain wishes a quick collapse of the present system. And will actively work towards his freedom so he can be left alone and untouched by the claws of the system.

Where as you should work and improve your situation, But not in a get rich or die trying way. And your benevolence towards others should be voluntary. There should never be a system in place taking stuff from you and giving to others. Thats why everyone is crazy today, Starting by yourself.
No votes have been placed for this debate.

By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use.