The Instigator
Leaning
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Sonofcharl
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Trying to live forever

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/21/2019 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 569 times Debate No: 121451
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (18)
Votes (0)

 

Leaning

Pro

I'd prefer to debate a person who does not believe in a life after this one.

Seems to me existence ought be a driving interest of a person. But more than that, I say it 'ought be 'the driving interest in a person.

I exist. . . . . I exist. . . . . . What a wonderful phrase. Solipsism is it, Where people are so sure of that one concept? I exist. So then, Damn all the rest. Damn morality. Damn ethics. Damn people and all the rest. To keep that thought, That sentiment going, What price 'could equal it? I recall my past more than once upon a time, But eventually I cannot recall any farther back. I look to the future and wonder will I really no longer exist? An intolerable thought though I cannot seem to separate it's eventual probability from a hundred. Well then so be it You Gotta Die Sometime, But till then I'll be living and struggling to live longer. Against obstacles immediate and perceived oncoming in time. Or rather till then I ought.

Such a passion is throughout history. Moreso to those of means. Though the ancients and their mercury pills never had a chance. Still, What we do not know may be, Or not. A person still needs to try and experience it before it is or is not. And I argue here, That in this modern era, There's apparent immortality barely in our grasp. 'Almost out our reach. But that's the reason for effort and describing it as the value of values.
Sonofcharl

Con

And solipsism states the obvious and is simply a noise. A thought voice conversion.

And the mass is content with it's own destruction, Whilst the mind frets only about it's own inability to think.

So what is life anyway?

Is it the cack of bodily function and sleep and waking drudgery for the sake of conscious information and dreams.

If we could download our consciousness, Would we still be free of the old anxieties.

Loss of control, On and off, Malfunction, Non-existence.

The certainty of death and ultimate peace, Seems the preferable option.
Debate Round No. 1
Leaning

Pro

I would view myself as alive if I was a downloaded consciousness, Though it may not meet some dictionary definition. I'd like my memory, My thoughts, Dreams, Choice, And function to continue on. I think for someone to be peaceful, They need to exist. A dead person to my way of thought is not so much as peace as they simply aren't. Peaceful is sitting under a tree near a brook as a bubbles by, Peaceful is lying in bed in a secure home and country, Peaceful is lying in a field and cloud watching. But, Subjective question maybe.

Death and nothingness could be reached by suicide quick enough, But to that never I say. Certainly not now.
Sonofcharl

Con

Peace is not about a location.

Peace is about being free from adverse physical sensation and more importantly freedom from mental stress.

Very rarely do brief moments of such blissful conjunction actually occur.

Life always seems to be a constant struggle to achieve something. We achieve one thing, Only for there to be something else looming large and worryingly on our conscious horizon.

Ok: So sleep and dream state can offer temporary respite from the waking drudgery. But dreams themselves can initiate a sort of sub-conscious stress or worse still descend into the chaos of nightmares.

"Trying to live for ever" Would just exacerbate the constant mental and physical stresses, Especially stresses associated with an aged body.

And once we separate mind from body wouldn't we loose all control. Wouldn't it be just the same as sitting around in a retirement home, Being reliant on others to keep us switched on and functioning.

I would suggest that death, Although we are never prepared to consciously accept it, Is actually a pre-programmed, Innate solution to the absurdity of living.

And of course; what we are actually doing here, Is the absurdist thing of all.
Debate Round No. 2
Leaning

Pro

You're a plithy person, Sonofcharl. I mean that positively.

Nonetheless, While I can agree with peace being free from adverse physical and mental stress. I 'can't agree with a nonexistent person being at peace. If a person doesn't exist, They cannot experience that peace. They're not even free from this world, Since to experience that freedom you have to 'be.

Trying to live forever 'would stress the mind and the body, But that is what it means to live. To struggle. To exert your will and being in this world. All the while knowing that 'this is 'it. There's no other experience beyond this. No second chances. This sip of water, That moon 'bove, These are the only times we will experience these exact moments! Well then, Let's have it! And more! I say, With relish!

We humans have a long history with death sure. Sure it's in our bones, Bodies, And DNA. Well then say I, We've evolved other biological traits before supposedly. Certainly before we have steeled our minds and ignited our spirits to go beyond our bestial bodies and instincts. Risen above the heavens themselves in soaring machines of steel, Or higher still as we have ventured to other alien worlds. What man wants, What man dreams, He can achieve. Is my assertion.
Sonofcharl

Con

Firstly: I'm hoping that you mean pithy. If so, I will accept that as a great compliment.

And please allow me return the same compliment. It's makes a refreshing change to find a mature conversation on this site.

And so:
There is peace and then there is the knowledge of peace.

And knowledge of peace and more so the functional expression of that knowledge, Especially when the consideration is of death and non-existence, Becomes it's own peace antithesis.

Knowledge of death and knowledge of non-existence is both consciously programmed and sub-consciously pre-programmed. Sub-conscious information lies within all our bodily tissue and is therefore beyond thought and conscious control. Whereas conscious information is constantly updating and updateable and as such, I would suggest that conscious acceptance of immortality slowly evolves into our consciousness as we age.
What we can deduce from this is that youthful, Conscious fear of death and non-existence is simply a survival strategy relative to innate physiological conditioning and ability. But as the body ages and functional ability starts to slowly decline we becoming more consciously tolerant of the notions of death and non-existence.

Therefore "trying to live forever" is as much a part of our innate mechanism, As is the inevitability and ultimate acceptance of death and non-existence. Don't we witness this all the time in other species?

Of course; human knowledge allows us to extend our mortality. Surgical and medical intervention and to some extent a considered approach to lifestyle, Allows some of us to prolong life and stave of death, But at this moment in time this is just a short term fix or delaying the inevitable. And let's be honest there is no comparison to be made between the quality of existence of a 25 year old person and that of a 125 year old person.

Therefore:
If we are going to live forever, It's no use simply staving of death and consequently increasing decrepitude. What we have to do is stop physiological aging altogether in order to maintain youthful vigour.
An achievable goal maybe and I suppose it would be foolish to suggest otherwise.

But at what cost?
And for what purpose other than individual selfishness?
Debate Round No. 3
Leaning

Pro

Pithy, That is indeed the word I meant, Though did not succeed in spelling.

I'm willing to admit a person can be at peace without understanding the concept of it, But I still disagree that something that does not exist can be at peace. But that'd be another discussion, What peace 'means.

I'm willing to admit that there are numerous animals with obvious programing I assume is unconscious. Migration in salmon or birds I 'assume is unconscious. Though admittedly many of their actions look unconscious to me with their apparently limited awareness. Humans have instincts I am sure. Which I assume would count as unconscious programming.

And I think you're right the closer one get's to death the less concerned they might be about fighting it off. But might that not be simply because they are so deep in the River Styx, They're up to their necks? It's understandable to give up effort and care when all hope and chance looks lost. . . All the more reason then I ought decide this now while young. Youth, Would appear to have more roads and paths ahead in life. More chances. Stopping physiological aging altogether would be an excellent direction.

Selfishness. . . Yes, I find myself leaning quite far toward egotism. I cannot deny that is my reason for immortality. My own fears and pleasures. Immortality, Something I've thought for 'years I'd trade the world for. Something that's burrowed in my mind so long, That for me it's become more a question of method than morality.

But what's wrong with selfishness? It's a common enough human motive.

Often enough I ask people what they want out of life?
They tend to say a steady job, A family, Enjoy life, Make decent money.

Boring yet practical. And having to deal with acquiring for oneself.

When a man is caught in some dangerous survival situation yet strives to survive, What else is he fighting for but himself? Eh, 'sometimes or perhaps often others. But that's a crux I suppose. . . I should have admitted it long ago. But people are subjective and have different desires. . . Heh, H*ll I even have it as one of my quotes
"What a person says on a subject says more about the person than the subject. "
. . . I don't think I'm wrong in my interpretation on how important living 'can be. But I'm willing to admit I may be wrong in viewing it as an objective 'everyone must feel this way. Still, I can't/won't empathize with people who accept the long run of death so easy. Sigh, Blasted yet enjoyable subjective nature of reality.

Eh, I still argue that a pursuit of immortality is a reasonable and worthy goal.
Sonofcharl

Con

I would have to agree that selfishness is innate. A key part of our survival mechanism.

Just as physiological decline is an in built strategy, That as yet we have no control over.

"Trying to live for ever" is a conscious strategy and as yet unachievable. To achieve youthful immortality we must first learn how to take control of and manipulate our pre-programmed bodies. Simply thinking about it isn't going to work.
I would therefore suggest that living forever is not an option, Certainly not for the foreseeable future and "trying to live forever" is therefore, Currently futile, As all we are doing is prolonging the agony of old age.

Perhaps we ought to touch briefly on the many other associated social and global issues that would obviously arise due to the effects of an immortal population.

I will bullet point some of these for Pro's consideration.

1. Population control. ( The more you think about this issue the more complex it becomes).

2. Resources and economy. ( allocation and provision)

3. Purpose. ( Isn't there an inevitable limit to achievement? )

4. Financial cost. (Individual and social. Will there need to be a new global approach to monetarism? )

5. Religion. ( Will immortality be seen as the gift of Gods or a challenge to Gods? )

6. Immortality for all or just the chosen ones. (The consequences of Inequality and resentment)

7. The further consequences, Once we have learnt how to manipulate our innate mechanisms.
Debate Round No. 4
Leaning

Pro

You 'may be right about what might occur in the future, Or what we are even capable 'of achieving. But for me, The part of that thought that matters is 'may.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Clarke's First Law: When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, He is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, He is very probably wrong. " - Wikiquote

The future is magic in a sense of it being beyond our understanding. Sometimes we can only strive for what 'may be.

Google - science au curious earth environment animals can live forever
The animals that can live forever. Numerous mentions are made of animals possessing tricks for escaping age, Though none are human.

In Sid Meier's Civilization series of computer games. There is a function for how your country spends it's money. If I treated my real life's goal in that fashion, I'd be turning all my effort towards immortality and safeguarding my right to. Perhaps this means trying to be moderately wealthy in hopes to purchase it if it happens to become available. But I'd rather form a Cult or a nation, Or an organization/business the size of a nation. And turn it's effort toward cheating death. The method doesn't matter as long as it works Cryogenics, Mind Uploading, Biology, Clones, Other, And so on.

Now to respond to considerations
. . . To me many of them are as though I were in the path of some oncoming storm come to wash away most of some city I live in. It does matter what is done after, And how will we provide for ourselves after, But first it surviving the storm. Though plans for after would be nice.

To some such as purpose, I feel humans already struggle with. Even with age deaths, People already commit suicide, Wonder on purpose. Perhaps some might choose to insult everyone in the entire universe. For me currently the highest purpose is existing, Though other purposes exist.

For rank, I'd intend to be one of the chosen immortals, And try to find the best way that others don't kill me for it in resentment.
Sonofcharl

Con

In short conclusion:

A typical aspiration of unfulfilled youthfulness. But as things stand at this moment in time "trying to live forever" is futile.

The body clock still ticks relentlessly and no amount of superficial intrusion or embellishment is actually stopping it any time soon.

Try as you will, But time ticks it's fast rhythm also and runs out with equal measure.

And body and mind will ultimately conclude in deathful harmony.

Fear not my worthy adversary.
Debate Round No. 5
18 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Leaning 2 years ago
Leaning
Hm, Rereading my immortality debates a bit, Before perhaps giving it another go.
"A typical aspiration of unfulfilled youthfulness"
I suspect Sonofcharl is right about that, But ah well. Supposedly a king of China once gave it a go, And failed. But the attempt is the thing.
The Sumerian king of legend, Too made this his quest.

Hm, Not very good examples that spring to my mind. Ah well, I go on.
Posted by Leaning 3 years ago
Leaning
I'm afraid of death.
For a while. Manage to wait long enough, And something interesting might happen. Perhaps life again.
Population might be related to climate change or climate survival. Just a feeling though.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
How can you want to be immortal by yourself?
Are you going to watch old movies and play old video games forever?

Population is not a problem yet. Climate change is a problem of the present.
Posted by Leaning 3 years ago
Leaning
Whether we would be immortal or not, The population/living space problem would have to be addressed anyway. Besides, My interest in immortality is egotism. I'd sacrifice the world if I could live forever (I sometimes think).
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
The resources crisis is caused by profit and simply making people live forever doesn't remove climate change as an issue.
Posted by Leaning 3 years ago
Leaning
Perhaps. Though one could argue that recreation is a necessary faucet in the human psych. But then there are other recreations that don't require as much waste. Besides, We already waste resources that we don't need. Perhaps immortality in some form would cause some form of energy crisis, But so does large numbers of mortal humans.

Human society is always evolving.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
@Leaning

So basically humans would be wasting resources that they don't need. I wasn't trying to make a comparison to computers.
Posted by Leaning 3 years ago
Leaning
Computers eat electricity and emit remove waste as heat?

I'd like to actually be able to eat as a human, And even defecate as well. But I could stand being a machine for a while. And still I would consider myself human. If I have a mind and an existence, That's 'alive enough for my vague definition.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
Hey you didn't answer this

How about eating and removing waste?
Posted by Leaning 3 years ago
Leaning
I'm thinking more and more that this is a subjective question. Which should have been obvious to me I suppose, Ah well. I don't think my answer to this question is wrong, But I suppose it is unreasonable to expect everyone to see it my way. I do wonder what percentage might though.

Eh, Just moving in hopefully two months, But more likely three months. Not sure where to go next.
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