The Instigator
Sven-Olof_Lindholm
Pro (for)
The Contender
Phil-E-CheeseSteak
Con (against)

We should seek to find a alternative treatment for transsexual individuals, Instead what we do now

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/23/2020 Category: People
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 435 times Debate No: 124106
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (24)
Votes (0)

 

Sven-Olof_Lindholm

Pro

I honestly think we are doing trans people a disservice by indulging in their contrary to reality belief of being the opposite gender.

A person will nearly always undeniably have either xx or xy chromosomes (execpt for very rare mutations) hence they are undeniably what their chromosomes nevermind their genetalia tells.

Also due to the way sexes works, And the very noticeable signs it has on a body, It's hard for any trans woman or man to really look like a real male/female. So what is even the point from the beginning? Why do something when you cannot do it right.

Then there is also all the evidence to show that trans suicide rate stays at the same high independent of how much support they get or if they have had surgery which suggests a greater underlying problem here.

Hence I think we should seek to develop a nonsurgical and non hormone induction method of solving gender dysphoria. If it comes to that they can never be cured maybe it would even be best to authorize euthanasia to prevent them a life of suffering and mental illness.
Phil-E-CheeseSteak

Con

Ok, This is a very complicated subject that deals with the fundamentals of how we examine biology, How we socially engage with gender as a concept, And how we engage with categorization as a whole so I'm gonna go point by point.

1. So fundamentally we have to start with the idea of what it means to categorize something. The way we choose to define a category is never a biological or scientific question, It's a philosophical one, Nothing in biology will ever tell you why we "ought" to define male and female by what chromosomes someone has as opposed to defining it by having brown or black hair or any other number other physical factors. Usually the metric in which we use to decide how we define a category is utility (mainly in regards to maximizing the well being for people), Basically how much utility can we gain from defining a category as one thing as opposed to another. This also means that we can redefine categories if said redefining gives more utility to the category. This leads to the argument Trans advocates tend to put forward that by expanding how we define the category of gender in a way that allows trans-men and trans-women to identify with their preferred gender, We gain utility in the form of the increase in well-being for trans people.

2. When it comes to trans issues we have two categories, Sex and gender. Sex usually refers to the biological categorization of male and female, Even here the categories male and female are not considered as binary, They are considered as a bi modal distribution. Basically we have certain traits then "tend" to be found in women and certain traits that "tend" to be found in men, For example men tend to have larger lung capacities, Women tend to have smaller frames. The key term here is "tend" because these traits are not found exclusively in either sex, Even when talking about xy and xx chromosomes the distinction isn't clear. There is something known as Swyer syndrome, Basically this is when someone grows up being treated/identifying as the sex of female and having the normal functional female genitalia, However, They have xy chromosomes and internal gonads instead of ovaries. To anyone interacting with these people they would come off as completely normal females, But going by how you seem to see the world they would be men. What I'm trying to convey here is that even biological sex is not a simply defined thing as you seem to think, Any biologist working in this field will tell you this. Gender is even more loosely defined as it represents the cultural meanings we attach to either being masculine or feminine as it influences personal identities, This is why pink can be "gendered" as a girl color and blue can be "gendered" as a boy color even though this distinction has no basis in biology. Your approach to these concepts are just fundamentally incorrect and overly simplistic when it comes to the way they are defined and understood by the academic and scientific consensus.

3. Sure, It can be difficult for many trans people to transition to the point of fully passing, But many of those boundaries are more connected to financial access then it is to our actual ability to bring someone to the point that it is virtually unnoticeable that they are trans. There are plenty of passing trans men and women who I know you would be incapable of identifying as trans unless they told you.

4. I implore you to share links to data showing that trans people suicide rates stay at the same high regardless of how much support they receive and whether or not they get the surgery to transition. Pretty much all the studies I have ever seen point towards the opposite and even the APA's own treatment recommendation for gender dysphoria includes sex reassignment surgery because of the huge drop in suicide rates for people post-transition as opposed to pre-transition. There are studies that argue that sex reassignment surgery on it's own isn't enough because, Despite reducing the suicide rates from where they were prior, Trans people post-transition still face higher rates of suicide then the general populace, But their conclusions are never to not engage with sex reassignment surgery as treatment, It's usually just them recommending auxiliary treatment in the form of improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group. Whenever I have seen people claiming the things you are, It tends to be because they read it on a site that horrendously mis-characterizes the conclusions and stats of actual research done on the topic.

5. Your Euthanasia argument sounds dangerously close to eugenics, Would you recommend the same for people with down syndrome or autism, What about people who have depression should we euthanize them if we are unable to cure them. How far down this rabbit hole do we go?
Debate Round No. 1
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Debate Round No. 3
24 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Phil-E-CheeseSteak 1 year ago
Phil-E-CheeseSteak
@Leaning
Well, I appreciated the conversation buddy. You've engaged with the argument in better faith then many of the people I have argued with in the past. Good luck out there.
Posted by Leaning 1 year ago
Leaning
@Phil-E-CheeseSteak
Eh, At this point it's going to be circles for the most part, With some minor deviations, I expect.
I think you've more skill at sharpening your points, Than I. But I maintain to myself, That my steels superior. Even if I've less knowledge to hone an edge to it.
Leastwise you tried, And I do worry at times of picking up absurd positions in life, So I'll likely 'think about what you've said.
Posted by Phil-E-CheeseSteak 1 year ago
Phil-E-CheeseSteak
Continued. . .
It doesn't work like that.

"But I stick to, A man's a man. A woman's a woman. "
This is a completely vacuous claim unless you present a consistent metric by which you would assign people to either group that retains a hard dichotomy, I could literally just say, I agree a man's a man and a woman's a woman, I just include Trans-men under the category of man, And Trans-women under the metric of women.

"If they choose to mutilate their body, No skin off my nose, But I'll call it for what I see it. "
If you met a woman who had her breasts removed to escape breast cancer, Or a woman who had a breast reduction to reduce sever back pain, Would you say that they had "mutilated their body"? If not why would you say that a sex reassignment procedure done to reduce the amount of gender dysphoria, (dysphoria so bad that people would literally rather kill themselves then continue to deal with it) is mutilating their bodies when It's just a procedure done to help with their mental health/disorder, And one that is recognized and even recommended by the APA?
Posted by Phil-E-CheeseSteak 1 year ago
Phil-E-CheeseSteak
"Male and female is to me, A reasonably hard dichotomy. Gender and sex, The same word for the most part. "
But you haven't been able to give me a solid definition that supports that hard dichotomy you believe in, Every time I've pushed you on it you've had to back pedal because you couldn't answer against my criticisms? Also gender and sex aren't the same word, They haven't been for a while, They're not considered to be the same in the fields of sociology, Psychology, Or even biology.

"As far as 'I know, Most people don't think they're trapped in the body of an opposite sex.
It's too bad people suffer in life, But that's life. "
Ya and most people don't suffer from autism, Or diabetes, Or cancer, But we still work to help these people and disincentivize discriminatory behavior taken towards them. The idea that if people suffer in life, That just life, Isn't how we approach anything, When black people existed under Jim Crow or when gay people weren't allowed to get married we worked to shift society to make it a more equitable place. By your logic, Why do we work to help end discrimination against anyone with disabilities, I mean "It's too bad people suffer in life, But that's life. "

"I suppose it's sad if they're mocked, But I'd be surprised to meet any person who has not been mocked in life. I suppose it's sad that they're at higher rate of suicide, I think it'd be better if they just accept their lot, Their body, Strive to enjoy life and find meaning. "
It's not just that they are being mocked, It's that they are being mocked for an aspect of themselves they can't change. We don't apply this metric to any other minority, We work to make our society a more accepting place. You also must realize that it's not as easy for trans people as "just accepting their lot", You realize gender dysphoria is a mental disorder recognized by the APA in the DSM-5? You wouldn't tell a person with clinical depression that they should just "accept their lot" It doesn't work lik
Posted by Phil-E-CheeseSteak 1 year ago
Phil-E-CheeseSteak
Weird
Posted by Sven-Olof_Lindholm 1 year ago
Sven-Olof_Lindholm
Ohh so that's what happened, Yes it does indeed seem to have not posted my round.
Will try to fix it when I can.
Thanks for the help.
Posted by Leaning 1 year ago
Leaning
Well, That's odd. The timer reset. . .
@Sven-Olof_Lindholm
If you tried to post your round, But it failed to go through, There might be some part of your argument that the site glitched on.
Often this occurs for links or bible verses. Because of the minus signs, Numbers, And periods, (Is my guess)
One method you could use is to simply say google (Insert basic words to reach site)
Or attempt to post your argument in the forums, Bit by bit, To see which bit refuses to post.
Posted by Leaning 1 year ago
Leaning
@Phil-E-CheeseSteak
Yes, I realize natural argument can have flaws.
Yet still, It can be convincing to some, If used in certain ways.

A plucked chicken 'does work some on your side, But I think others will find it works on mine as well. It's fair, To point out flaws in some classification theories. But clever talk, Even with a type of logic, Doesn't always change what is. Or what people perceive as is. Still can't claim the chicken for a man.
Zeno can paradox motion all he likes, But it doesn't stop objects from reaching their destination.

Male and female is to me, A reasonably hard dichotomy.
Gender and sex, The same word for the most part.
As far as 'I know, Most people don't think they're trapped in the body of an opposite sex.
It's too bad people suffer in life, But that's life.
I suppose it's sad if they're mocked, But I'd be surprised to meet any person who has not been mocked in life.
I suppose it's sad that they're at higher rate of suicide, I think it'd be better if they just accept their lot, Their body, Strive to enjoy life and find meaning.
If they choose to mutilate their body, No skin off my nose, But I'll call it for what I see it.
Also sad the rest of those issues, But my gist is the same mostly.
Yoshikage69Kira, Made an 'alright argument for sterilization a bit ago, But I still likely wouldn't agree.
Euthanasia 'can be self inflicted, Suicide. But I don't care for it. Other peoples choice, But I think they're wrong. Though I have a strong suspicion that might merely be preference on my part.
I'm not arguing we should stone trans.
Not arguing we should go out of our way to shame them, Or picket them.
They are people/individuals after all.
But I stick to, A man's a man. A woman's a woman.

I'd no sooner consider transsexual thought as normal than illegal drug use. No matter how one might hear some drug user trying to explain away his behavior, Choices, Philosophy, View of life. No matter how eloquently they speak, 'my convictio
Posted by Phil-E-CheeseSteak 1 year ago
Phil-E-CheeseSteak
@Leaning
So, Here's my problem, If we both agree that the way we categories male and female, Even in a sexual manner isn't really a hard dichotomy, And considering our social definition of gender will inevitably be even softer then how we define biological sex, The question then seems to be one of the effect the way we define these things has on society. Right now we have a statically relevant number of people who face a higher rate of suicide due to the intense disconnect they feel between how they identify internally and how their body presents and other people treat them(not even mentioning the fact that they also face higher rates of rape, Murder, And homelessness then the general population). If we can significantly decrease their rate of suicide and increase their quality of life by shifting the general perception and acceptance of these people in society, And increasing their access the hormones and sex reassignment surgery in order to treat their dysphoria, Then I don't see why we ought not move in that direction as a society.

Your plucked chicken point works to my side of the argument. The reason Diogenes brought that featherless chicken to Plato's lecture was as a criticism to the way Plato had formulated his definition of man. Similarly my examples serve as a criticism against the way you have attempted to define man and woman in a way that acts binary towards one another. I think it's a valid point of criticism.

Also you brought up the point that you dislike the idea of sex changes because it's "unnatural", You've brought this point up multiple time and I think it's flawed. There are a ton of things we engage in today that could be considered unnatural, The more natural thing to do with people who have disabilities would be to allow them to die off as opposed to giving them help, Survival of the fittest, But that's not what we do, As human's we engage in the unnatural, To our benefit, All the time.
Posted by Leaning 1 year ago
Leaning
'@Phil-E-CheeseSteak
Ambush 'is likely too strong a word, But it's meant more as a joke, Than myself feeling threatened. Though it's true in a fashion, Debates can be a game like chess. At times an individual has already planned out how he will lead the opponent, Then spring a trap trying to convince him.

Yes, Traits and features can be shared by different categories and classes.
But this does not mean that the two are one in the same.
Pluck that chicken of all it's feathers, It is still not a man, Even if one were to go mad scientist Dr. Moreau on it. Cutting here, Primping there. It remains a mutilated bird.

When individuals have eye surgery, Or nose jobs, It doesn't change their genetics. The truth will come out when they have children. They've had fancy paint job, But the machine remains below.

I am glad that we don't have the means yet, So far as I know, To change people's sex. I find the concept disturbing and unnatural. Though I'll admit that says more about my feelings/culture than the truth. I do hold them, However fallacious, As decent reasons for myself to oppose something to various degrees.

If a women is a warrior, I wouldn't call her a man, I'd call her a woman warrior.
If a man was a housemaid, I'd not call him a woman, I'd call him a male housemaid (Still weird to me though), Or perhaps male servant or something.

And then we come to chromosomes
Politely, I'd call them Anomalies.
Impolitely, I'd call them freaks.
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