The Instigator
Red_Fox
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
tejretics
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

"Women" couldn't recognize EQUALITY if it slapped them in the face

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/29/2019 Category: Society
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 736 times Debate No: 120079
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (4)
Votes (0)

 

Red_Fox

Pro

In the next few rounds, I will put forward several SCENARIOS OF EQUALITY that "women" don't normally recognize or appreciate. Your task will be to unmask the inequality within them or demonstrate their irrelevance.

I used quotation marks for "women" in the title because I don't mean women. I refer to the few women (and fewer men) who make sweeping claims about "obvious and significant inequalities" between men and women--even when referring to present day USA. If you are one of these people, Please join me in this discussion about equality.

In Round 1 let's begin by defining "equality" via general principles.

My understanding of EQUALITY is based in the American ideals of "life, Liberty, And the pursuit of happiness. " That is, Equal people have equal freedoms and opportunities, But not necessarily equal results.

This is because EQUALITY also includes the duality of "choice and accountability. " First, Equal people are allowed to make their own choices. Second, They are expected to accept responsibility for the consequences of those choices. Blaming others for bad consequences due to foolish decisions is decidedly NOT equal.

However, This EQUALITY is tempered with a measure of justice. That is, Rules themselves cannot impair the preceding ideals of EQUALITY. However, There are few "rules" in most of the scenarios that I will put forward. What rules exist between a man and a woman in a romantic relationship? What rules exist between competing retailers, Or between a retailer and a potential customer? What rules exist between a husband and a wife?
tejretics

Con

I accept.

I intend to prove that women -- and nonbinary people, For that matter -- are disadvantaged compared to men in society (on balance) and that much of the women's movement (and the feminist movement) should continue to exist.

My opponent defines "equality" as the "equality of opportunity. " I agree with that definition. I argue that -- even purely on opportunities, Rather than outcomes -- patriarchal structures disadvantage women (and nonbinary folks). Therefore, There is a moral obligation to try and fight those injustices. Note that Pro hasn't made an argument yet, Apart from justifying their definition of equality. So I'll wait until Pro makes an argument and then respond to it.

Before I go, Just keep in mind one thing: Pro has the sole burden of proof in this debate. If they fail to fulfill that burden of proof, Vote Con by default.
Debate Round No. 1
Red_Fox

Pro

For Round 2, I will focus on Economic issues in my SCENARIOS OF EQUALITY.

=== Scenario 2. 1 - Poverty ===
Let us begin with an alternate reality version of the "traditional" life path between Bethanie and Fred. First comes love, Then comes marriage, Then comes baby in the baby carriage (should we say 2. 2 kids? ). In this alternate reality, Bethanie has outside employment to support the family while Fred is a homemaker to support the family. Unfortunately, They later divorce. Fred gains primary custody of the children. Bethanie is not a deadbeat mom, Which is to say that she pays child support and alimony on time (and in full) and visits on weekends. Fred and the kids are left in poverty, But Bethanie is not.

--- Discussion ---
This is what EQUALITY looks like under the weight of DIVORCE. Divorce is a primary cause of poverty among all people, Especially for children and their primary care givers. When a family is intact, All wages buy consolidated needs: combined meals, 1 home, Overlapping transportation, Long-term savings. After divorce, Costs balloon (disparate "fast" meals, 2 homes, And separate transportation). No matter how high child support and alimony are set, The standard of living always suffers even after savings end.

=== Scenario 2. 2 - Office Meetings ===
Burt and Rita are in a brainstorming meeting with other men and women. Everyone freely shares ideas and defends questions and concerns. In a few cases, Similar ideas are put forward by two people. When Burt offers his idea, It is unclear to a few people. Another person restates his point, Then the rest understand. Five or 10 minutes after Rita presents her idea, Another person suggests something very similar. For some reason the "similar" idea is accepted more heartily than was Rita"s. At the end of the meeting, Rita and Burt are both fuming.

--- Discussion ---
This is what EQUALITY looks like in corporate America today. Many times ideas look better on the second pass (even if no one gives the originator credit). Many times one person (or 2 or 3 people) explains again when the group doesn't immediately understand. These two "helps" regularly happen to both men and women in 2019 USA. It seems that women do most of the complaining about it, Though. This indicates to me that women dislike the help more than men. However, This is not evidence of sexism because the opportunities and rules apply equally to all.

=== Scenario 2. 3 - Promotions ===
George and Barbara have equivalent job assignments in the same company. One is energetic and outspoken; the other is hardworking and humble. The outspoken one is very eager for more hours, Harder work, And a promotion; the hard worker is focused on achieving the "mission" of the company but is less concerned about pay. No surprise at year end that the outspoken one is promoted and the other is not.

--- Discussion ---
This is what EQUALITY looks like in the American economy. People who are driven to get paid more will do what it takes to get ahead. Some others openly denounce monetary interests (I wish them good luck). Still others crave a promotion but expect the recognition to come to them with minimal effort on their part. These rules seem reasonably EQUAL. Quite possibly, Women fall into the second and third categories more often than men. If so, This is a reflection of choice in 2019 USA not of discrimination.

=== Scenario 2. 4 - "Women's Work" ===
Twins, Pauline and Sanders, Grew up in one of the 10 largest cities in America, Did well in high school, And got accepted to a good State University. They each were then faced with a decision about career path. Sarah decided to pursue a degree in English Literature. After graduating with honors (and with $50k of debt), She realized that her degree didn't really prepare her for any specific job. In the end, Pauline went to work as an entry level "administrator" in a Healthcare company. Sanders' choice was no college--he preferred to jump right into a "career" in construction work.

--- Discussion ---
This is what EQUALITY looks like in the American workforce. Both men and women regularly choose degrees that are worthless in the job market because they feel like they ought to "follow their passion. " Regardless of the merit of specific degrees, 2019 USA presents every man and every woman with seemingly unlimited choice in career paths. The idea that those free decisions are somehow constrained by sex discrimination appears quite preposterous on its face. Beyond that, This idea suggests that men are able to make good decisions but that women are not--such a position is the epitome of sexism. In reality, Every man and every woman is really making the best decision for themselves based on individual interests, Preparations, And values.

=== Returning briefly to your acceptance ===
You have suggested several arguments that are not related to the debate you've joined. First, This is not a debate about whether the Patriarchy is "disadvantaging" women. Second, This debate is not about gender identity. Third, This debate is not about whether the feminist movement "should continue to exist. "

This debate is about whether feminist complainers (I assume you are one of them since you joined the debate) can recognize EQUALITY. Whether your ideology will allow you to see that in many cases disparities are driven not by amorphous anti-woman forces (which you called "patriarchal") but by the natural results of the natural differences between individuals on the topics of interests, Choices, Values, Etc.

As an aside, Simply arguing that the feminist movement should "continue to exist" is hollow. I would be glad if the feminist movement existed for good purposes. Wouldn't it be great for feminism to recognize real problems and solve them! To support women as women (in all their variety) instead of leftists as women-supporters (in their narrowness). To oppose abortion of female babies instead of encouraging all abortions.
tejretics

Con

tejretics forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
Red_Fox

Pro

I guess this proves my thesis: couldn't even acknowledge.
tejretics

Con

tejretics forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
tejretics

Con

tejretics forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
Red_Fox

Pro

My opponent appears to have run into the all-too-frequent glitches on this site. I would love a challenge from him on a similar topic.
tejretics

Con

Could we do this debate on DebateArt. Com and have this deleted? Not sure I know which special characters aren't allowed, And am similarly unsure if I can write a meaningful argument without using them.
Debate Round No. 5
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by Red_Fox 3 years ago
Red_Fox
The last time this happened to me, I had to remove some "special" characters. The system often doesn't like double dashes (--), Apostrophes, Quotes when copied from Word. Also, The system doesn't like URLs anymore. Lastly, It sometimes doesn't like when I put too many non-words in (for example, I used to put long lines for equal sign "======. . . " in for section headings).

Try to post after eliminating these, And hopefully it will work.
Posted by tejretics 3 years ago
tejretics
There's a glitch preventing me from posting arguments.

I can post a google doc on the comments or something to prove I have an argument that's not being posted.
Posted by Athias 3 years ago
Athias
Which moral utility does equality serve in the first place? I ask this because Con asserts a moral obligation borne from a lack of equality.
Posted by Kvng_8 3 years ago
Kvng_8
Fox vs Wolf, Who shall win? Tune in next time :D
No votes have been placed for this debate.

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