The Instigator
backwardseden
Pro (for)
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0 Points
The Contender
zapshe
Con (against)
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0 Points

the god of the bible gives power to the evildoer to the first time offender, No exceptions, None

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/2/2019 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 602 times Debate No: 122271
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (35)
Votes (0)

 

backwardseden

Pro

The god of the bible gives power to the evildoer, To commit his crimes to the first time offender, Whether they be horrific or not, Every single time, No exceptions, None, And sometimes for more numerous accounts beyond the first time offense, While the victims inevitably suffer, Sometimes in horrific pain, Or even death. Now you think about that in your chop suey brain if you believe in this god of YOURS. So you REALLY think this storybook unproven god is a god of "love"? Try harder please. In fact this printed unproven supposed god is a proven sadist.

According to YOU, IF YOU believe in this god of YOURS, YOUR god gave power to Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Hong Xiuquan, All serial killers, All pedophiles, All torturers, All rapists, All sodomizers etc etc etc as first time offenders at the very least, No exceptions, None, To commit their atrocities and horrific acts against their victims who by definition will suffer, Possibly horrifically or even die.

So what rights of passage do the victims have in this? Its NONE. They might if there's a second offense or more than a second offense. However, The victims are treated like garbage, Spat out like trash on the first offense, Especially children.
A perfect example of this is the "daddy rape kit" scenario. JOY! God gives power to daddy. Daddy rapes his 4 year old and punches her in the face. Naturally since the bible treats children like trash and so does god, The stern He-Man who is the power gets all the glory as the child CANNOT escape and SCREAM at the top of her lungs, Sometimes twice per week for decades.

There are those huffing and klunking my rust down with "free will free will free will". What a load.
* Show me anywhere in the bible where it states anything anywhere close to "I the lord thy god grants man free will. " Since your lord did not state anything like this, In fact, Not even anything close to it, You as a patient of your god, If you believe in this travesty, You do not have free will.
* Also your so-called unproven god could have taken the evil out of free will and thus believe in peace, Kindness, Care for each other, Love. Nah. That'd be far too easy. Its something that you so-called christians (don't worry, There's ab-so-lu-te-ly no such a thing as being a christian) simply don't get that there doesn't have to be evil an hate. AND your bible is filled with it, Especially with your god committing it.
* There's no such a thing as free will if being threatened with death. An example is 4 of the 10 commandments do this thus taking free will away. Blaspheme, Working on the sabbath, Cursing at your parents, Adultery.
* Your unproven god does not have free will. If this unproven god knows his future this means he knows what his choices are before they have been made. This is NOT free will. Since YOUR unproven god does not have free will, Man does not have free will.

There are those tooting under their flesh and steel skin "satan satan satan". OK have it your way. Four major problems.
1. This god of YOURS who is supposed to know everything that there is to know knowingly created satan. In knowing this, This god must have known that satan would have to turn out to be evil. In knowing this, This makes god evil.
2. OK great. That means that satan is more powerful than god for evil to rule over the good.
3. This can be broken down into 3 different categories. A. God is allowing satan to do whatever he pleases. B. God doesn't care what satan does c. God doesn't know what satan does

And the very best part. . .
4. Satan like god is all made up drillbit diaper mill-do foodland stucco for the cabbage batbrain and is B. S. Because there's no proof that either of them exists.

dsjpk5 is disqualified from the voting procedures as he tries to pretend he's god and thus change the voting structure of who wins and loses here on DDO.
zapshe

Con

It's impossible for the God of the Bible to give power to ANYONE, Because he's not real.

-Debate Over-

LoL. Anyway, The God of the Bible or anything else is simply made up as I'm sure you're aware. It's not God giving people this power but the people themselves. For example, If you were to write a book where a fictional character pushes for slavery. You wouldn't say "that fictional character is trying to promote slavery! " Instead, You'd say "the AUTHOR is trying to promote slavery! "

Anyone that feels empowered by God is like someone reading a mystery novel and thinking they can now solve crimes. In the end, The one's who made this stuff up were doing so for their own benefit and power. The people who believed it were already in a mindset to do whatever they were going to do, They just now felt like it was justified.

I will disagree with this:

"* Your unproven god does not have free will. If this unproven god knows his future this means he knows what his choices are before they have been made. This is NOT free will. "
Free will and the future being set in stone do seem contradictory but not really. Lets say I see a giant boulder in the road. I choose to go around it on the right side and walk on - free will. However, Lets say "God" could see the future and knew I'd do that. The only reason this future is so paved in stone is because this is what my free will would have led me to.

Now, If I or God know the future but CAN'T change our decisions, This is when free will would be lost. If you know your future but can use that knowledge to alter it, Then you have free will. In this case, "God" would likely have all possibilities laid out for how everything and everything can play out depending on the choices he makes. This seems counter intuitive, But as long as God can decide himself which of those futures to choose, Then he'd have free will.
Debate Round No. 1
backwardseden

Pro

Well first off, The de-bate was specifically meant for inbred supposed christians (because in realty, Oh sorry, Reality there is no such a thing as a christian) who feed off of their toenails for break-fast for their noodle-roni bridge get-togethers. But if you were to have read the de-bate it specifically stated "According to YOU, IF YOU believe in this god of YOURS, YOUR god gave power to Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Hong Xiuquan, All serial killers, All pedophiles, All torturers, All rapists, All sodomizers etc etc etc as first time offenders at the very least, No exceptions, None, To commit their atrocities and horrific acts against their victims who by definition will suffer, Possibly horrifically or even die. " In other wurds, Its a trap de-bate where the supposed christian cannot possibly win no matter debuckle, Oh sorry, Debacle of the bad positioning of a stance for a yoga envelopment he takes.
But you know lil ole me by now, I NEVER under any circumstance give anybody, No matter who it is, I never give them - god. Its always a losing proposition from their end no matter what which is why we win every single debate that has anything to do with god is because they cannot prove that their god exists.

Btw, All of the free will issues are well thought out issues, Not by me, But by others well in advance of this broadcast, There's more, A lot more to the free will issues than was just printed. I can post some videos if you'd like? There's three videos that I continually use that are mind numbing that nearly every single person avoids at all costs because they like me doesn't understand ( I don't with one of them but no arguments yet) them which is why I like to use them. The other two are diabolical. But with the traveling forward in time for their unproven god/ a supreme deity since he would know his future etc etc, The proposition also works in reverse. So they'd have to explain it both backward and forwards. Butttttt considering the fact that the bible only moves forward in time, Its a losing proposition for those that believe in their god.

Well its time for my nap and I usually sleep for a day or longer. I have really bad sleeping habits. Then its the soccer match tomorrow. So I'm not sure when I will be online next.
Please always tc and haveth thee fun -Michael
zapshe

Con

"The de-bate was specifically meant for inbred supposed christians"

Yes, But it was up for a while and it seemed no one was going to take it on. I got a little bored.

"There's more, A lot more to the free will issues than was just printed. "

The issue I'd likely find with it is the definition of free will to begin with. It can easily be argued that even without God, We don't have free will at all. Lets say I'm a horrible position, Someone is trying to get me fired. They're the boss's son, So i can't do anything about it but he's continually making me out to be incompetent and useless.

At this point, What are my options? Only a few. Either I quit and find a new job, I try to prove that he's wrong, I do nothing until I get fired eventually, Or I kill this guy. Already, When we want to do something with free will, We get down to only a few options. Now, If I quit there's no guarantee I'll find another job that could support me and my family. If I do nothing and get fired, Same issue. If I kill him, I could get caught and my life would be spent in prison. Only viable option is to find some way to prove him wrong.

Notice how with all those options, Really only had one? Plus, Who came up with those list of options? Most things you do come from your subconscious. Your decision making is based heavily on it. Your conscious mind seems to simply have the choices to agree or decline with the proposals your subconscious makes, Is that free will?

"According to YOU, IF YOU believe in this god of YOURS, YOUR god gave power to Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Hong Xiuquan, All serial killers, All pedophiles, All torturers, All rapists, All sodomizers etc etc etc as first time offenders at the very least, No exceptions, None, To commit their atrocities and horrific acts against their victims who by definition will suffer, Possibly horrifically or even die. "

While, Like most religions, There's plenty of horrible things, The Bible does denounce things like killing those in your society and such evil acts. If the Bible thought it was taking away freewill, Then there would be no reason to tell people how they should act.

"But with the traveling forward in time for their unproven god/ a supreme deity since he would know his future etc etc, The proposition also works in reverse. So they'd have to explain it both backward and forwards. "

Breaking down any argument against free will that involves time travel is very easy. Lets first solve it going back in time. If you go back in time to watch you actions, You can't change them. It's already happened, You already made your decisions with freewill. However, If you go back in time and can interact with yourself yet cannot under any circumstance convince your past self to do something differently, Then what happens is written in stone and cannot be altered, No free will. Unless we can acquire a time machine, This is impossible to prove and the most likely thing to be true is that you CAN alter the past if you could travel back to it.

Now, Going forward in time. As I've said, If you look at the future and you find you can't change your decisions, Then you have no free will. If you look at the future and ARE able to change your decisions, Then you have free will. Simply look at an anime like "Future Diary". Several people are given (by a deity) a diary that will always write ahead to their futures. However, Because they know the future nothing is set in stone and they can watch their futures change right infront of them.

If you say "well, We don't have access to knowledge of the future therefore the future is set in stone and no free will. " Then understand that the future is only set in stone because we can only do things one time. And in that one time contains all our decisions that we made with free will. Simply, We thought things out and decided on a course of action. Without time travelling capabilities, We weren't going to know enough about the outcome ahead of time to possibly make a new decision, But it's still free will.

If you think one of your videos can disprove this then go ahead and link them to me. Sleep well!
Debate Round No. 2
backwardseden

Pro

Seasoned beatings. Oh sorry greetings. A deliberate miss-steak on my p[art. My hands are killing me right now. So I will do what I can. I have terrible hands. Severe numbness and pain. And I have 3 others to go. But yours comes first even though you are second in line.

You got a little broad? Oh sorry bored? Strange in me living alone and having only one friend that lives one hours away, And all of my other friends are extremely long distance, And then all of my other friends are dead and with my mind that does talk to me and repeats things from the past in a super vicious way, And with rare abilities to get out and do things on my own except to go see docs, And shop for groceries once a month because of a severe lack of money and severe health problems, I rarely get bored. I constantly watch films and TV shows, Listen to and compose music (but I will actually get out and go see Deep Purple my fav band from the 70"s in Sept. When they come here to Orlando - GOD do I hate it here in Orlando = no culture! This will be my first outing on my own that is worth a damn in years. ) etc etc etc.

Now the friends I have are lifelong friends and would die for me and I for them. Its something that lacks, Sorely, For many here on DDO.

Oh yes, Many believe that there is no free will. Period. But if true, This somehow means we are controlled. If you are controlled there is no free will. In the scenario you presented its the same principle as if you are threatened with death you have no free will. Only with death its a more strict of an idea and term. Its with the debate I presented" https://www. Debate. Org/debates/A-scenario-Theres-you-a-christian-Your-one-true-love-And-a-man-with-a-shotgun-all-in-one-room/5/
Or the "Sophie"s Choice" choice when she"s up against the gun she is forced to choose which of her children to choose. If she doesn"t make the choice, BAM one of her children dies. AND she cannot take the place of either of her children so both of her children survive. She is also outmanned so she cannot kill the gunman. Nor is she offered the choice to murder the gunman. On your scenario, It is. So yeah, Its offered in an opposing direction. But do you see how both ideas are the same principles? If not, Correct me if I"m wrong. But wow, Ever ever ever soooooooo many ideals on the free will issue!
Yes, Absolutely I do agree that most decisions come from the subconscious.
Well see what if there"s more than one solution? Like quit the job and go on Welfare or collect S. S. Or ooooooo believe in a fake god and he will support you, Or go out into the forest and live off the land, Or move to another country and live by their rules, Or become homeless, Become a drug user / alcoholic,

Btw, That was an etude in Bflat minor to supposed green beret christians who actually think and believe that they know what they are squawking about.
"According to YOU, IF YOU believe in this god of YOURS, YOUR god gave power to Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Hong Xiuquan, All serial killers, All pedophiles, All torturers, All rapists, All sodomizers etc etc etc as first time offenders at the very least, No exceptions, None, To commit their atrocities and horrific acts against their victims who by definition will suffer, Possibly horrifically or even die. "

"While, Like most religions, There's plenty of horrible things, The Bible does denounce things like killing those in your society and such evil acts. If the Bible thought it was taking away freewill, Then there would be no reason to tell people how they should act. "
Sure it does. Really? Nope. NOT as a first time offender. AND its perfectly for its god to murder. A supermassive hypocritical contradiction. AND its perfectly OK for its god to send armies into battle to murder for him. Yet more supermassive hypocritical contradictions.

"But with the traveling forward in time for their unproven god/ a supreme deity since he would know his future etc etc, The proposition also works in reverse. So they'd have to explain it both backward and forwards. "

"Breaking down any argument against free will that involves time travel is very easy. Lets first solve it going back in time. If you go back in time to watch you actions, You can't change them. It's already happened, You already made your decisions with freewill. " But what if they are bad decisions and you ant to go back on them? Everything god did especially with his "regrets" were obviously not good decisions. "However, If you go back in time and can interact with yourself"" OK then that would mean more than one god. So that ideal can automatically be cancelled out.
"yet cannot under any circumstance convince your past self to do something differently, Then what happens is written in stone and cannot be altered, No free will. " Then god would thus realize that there would be no point to travel back in time and meet himself. God would not need a time machine if god is a god.
"Now, Going forward in time. As I've said, If you look at the future and you find you can't change your decisions, Then you have no free will. " OK. Looking at it, I think you missed it. So I"m getting it now. So let me repeat it" "* Your unproven god does not have free will. If this unproven god knows his future this means he knows what his choices are before they have been made. This is NOT free will. Since YOUR unproven god does not have free will, Man does not have free will. "
We are not speaking of people's free will, But of god"s free will. Its not "we". Its god. Since god does not have free will, Man does not have free will.

At any rate here are 3 videos that essentially prove that the god of the bible has no free will. None.
http://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=hOaLlyRId4I - An All Knowing God versus Free Will: The Greatest Religious Contradiction
http://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=lAqFbiBDb_c - Free Will With God
http://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=Z1BzP1wr234&t=5s+How - How God Favors Evil

Also I do not know if you have a thumbnail video to the right of the How God Favors Evil video, But there"s a truly great masterpiece video in which is a true phenom. Https://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=HcHYsieoQK8 - Summarizing the Evidence that God is Evil

Please always tc and haveth thee fun - Michael
zapshe

Con

"So yeah, Its offered in an opposing direction. But do you see how both ideas are the same principles? If not, Correct me if I"m wrong. But wow, Ever ever ever soooooooo many ideals on the free will issue! "

Well the free will part of it would be deciding which child lives or dies. There's always the third option of still trying to take them all out James Bond style. However, We should also look at the people with the guns. They had to option to not do this but decided to. While there, They have the option to betray each other to stop this cruelty. There are many people with many decisions they can make. And in this case, The ones controlling the woman are not being controlled themselves, Therefore acting out of free will. Free will can be taken to an extent (limiting someone's options), But it still technically exists as long as there are more than 1 option to choose from (even if those options are outside the box kind of ideas).

"Sure it does. Really? Nope. NOT as a first time offender. AND its perfectly for its god to murder. A supermassive hypocritical contradiction. AND its perfectly OK for its god to send armies into battle to murder for him. Yet more supermassive hypocritical contradictions. "

This wasn't me saying that the Bible talks about peace, It was an argument to free will. If there was no free will, The Bible wouldn't tell people how to act. Since people can and do act out of line, Even with "divine will" involved, There's free will even if there's a God I'd say.

"But what if they are bad decisions and you ant to go back on them? Everything god did especially with his "regrets" were obviously not good decisions. "

I said if you could go back in time ONLY to watch yourself. If you can interact with yourself or whatever, Then you could obviously change things. However, Looking at the past you wouldn't give you new knowledge that can be used to alter the past. You'd need a time machine to alter the past. Unlike the future, The past is determined and already happened, Whereas the future is determined but has yet to happen. If you have knowledge of the future, You can change it, Altering the future. Having knowledge of the past simply isn't enough, You need a time machine.

""However, If you go back in time and can interact with yourself"" OK then that would mean more than one god. So that ideal can automatically be cancelled out. "

Well God isn't real, But if he was I don't think going back in time would make another God. Depending on the physics the time machine runs on there wouldn't even be a contradiction. The only two of something that would exist would be the person travelling back in time. I assume God doesn't NEED to travel back in time. God's awareness could be all over, Unattached from time. There's a video game called "Dreamfall Chapters: The Longest Journey" that has a creature which is like this. His whole life is on display for his conscious mind. He can easily "live" in any of those moments and it's hard for him to talk with others because he has to "focus" on being in that one particular moment in time.

"Then god would thus realize that there would be no point to travel back in time and meet himself"

Using my previous theory, This would not apply. Either way, I was talking more in terms of people rather than God. God can always change his mind if my theory is correct. Because the mind of his past/present/future are all the same mind.

"We are not speaking of people's free will, But of god"s free will. Its not "we". Its god. Since god does not have free will, Man does not have free will. "

My previous argument addresses this and makes your statement false. In truth, It doesn't matter anyway since God isn't real, But assuming he is there's no reason to think his conscious would be limited by time the way ours are.

I may or may not watch the videos. It would likely feel like watching a video on unicorns. Not real so it wouldn't be very interesting. While I haven't seen the videos you posted on free will, I think this new way of looking at it would probably make whatever the videos say false. Let me know.

"To defeat evil, I shall become an even Greater Evil. " ~ Lelouch Vi Britannia
Debate Round No. 3
backwardseden

Pro

Well the videos contain all the information you need/ require to prove that if whoever believes in this storybook fantasy god character, This person has no free will. Its not hard to figure out after watching them as they take you down quite a few runny babbit holes.

Bames Jond? Actually me in being the very big movie buff that I am, I"ve seen all Bond films multiple times and all but 1 in theaters/ a drive in. The very first one, Diamonds Are Forever is my personal fav and my parents took our entire family to see it at the local drive-in. And I was all set and ready to tell about it in show-and-tell the next day, But the girl who "liked" me more than her studly boyfriend who wanted to beat me up over her got to it first. I was really jealous that she got in ahead of lil ole me. Oh well.
Btw, I have a comedy bit on James Bond from my youtube channel from way way wayyyyyyyy back. That one little joke doesn"t last long though.

Again its hard to type because of my hands which is why I let the vidies do the squawkin". People don"t get that and they avoid the vidies at any rate, So that"s entirely their problem. Regardless they ---always--- contain more, A lot more, Evidence, Than any 5 RD"s of 10, 000 characters or more, Especially that DDO has to offer. If someone misses out when I post vidies, Its out of my hands and it means that my opponent directly refuses to take in any valid evidence which tells me that they are not interested in debating because there"s no possible way anyone can get more out of reading 50, 000 characters or more in comparison to watching a 5 minute, Tops, Video. And the longer the video, Obviously point blank, The more characters it would require to have for its equal value for the vidie. Why do you think its now a 2 - 4 minute vidie that is ruling the net? Sure there"s some webpages and all, But they are almost ---always--- accompanied by a video. Newsweek, Space, Livescience, TVguide, Listings for what"s expiring and what"s new on Amazon Prime, Hulu, Criterion Channel, Netflix (the ones I go into), They ---always--- do this. All except DDO.

"Well the free will part of it would be deciding which child lives or dies. " See I gotta disagree with you there though. And in my interviews with others its about a 50/50 split. Some say its free will. Some don"t. The ones that don"t are usually in their teens to early 20"s. I don"t talk to those that are younger. I"m so tempted to cut teens of my list from interviews because they really don"t have a sense of truth. Sure there"s a third option. Suicide. But not if that option is taken away. Another option(s) is for the mother to be a sweaty piece of rear end wipes, Move on and forget about both of her children and both die? Or if given the option, Move on and both children live? But see, That"s not why they called it "Sophie"s Choice" in which Meryl Streep won her first academy award in a truly harrowing knockout performance in which I hate the Academy Awards but oh well. "There's always the third option of still trying to take them all out James Bond style. " No. That rule was already in place that she couldn"t. Otherwise, Sure, Why not. But then again, There really should be no need, Want, Desire for this type of a situation, Or any death due to evil and hate in the first place. Call it a pipedream or a silly little notion, Sure why not? Nononono, Their, The gunman"s free will is governed by others free will to do harm. You have obviously not seen the film or checked up on it. Its about Nazi"s and their control over this woman and giving her the choice to save one or the other of her children - an impossible situation. This is NOT free will from her perspective. Sorry I didn"t explain the film. That"s entirely my fault.

"Sure it does. Really? Nope. NOT as a first time offender. AND its perfectly for its god to murder. A supermassive hypocritical contradiction. AND its perfectly OK for its god to send armies into battle to murder for him. Yet more supermassive hypocritical contradictions. "

No this argument is about "the god of the bible gives power to the evildoer to the first time offender, No exceptions, None"

"This wasn't me saying that the Bible talks about peace, It was an argument to free will. If there was no free will, The Bible wouldn't tell people how to act. Since people can and do act out of line, Even with "divine will" involved, There's free will even if there's a God I'd say. " I do and don"t see what you are saying. There"s problems with this ideal. 1. The god of the bible as in print plays tricks, Lies, And deceives his prophets. This means that the supposed god of the bible does this to everybody and cannot be trusted. Atheists brutalize the god of the bible for this and rightly so"
* Ezekiel 20:25-26 "Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, And judgments whereby they should not live; 26 And I polluted them in their own gifts, In that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, That I might make them desolate, To the end that they might know that I am the LORD. "
From the Secular Web "God says that he intentionally gave out bad laws. - This means that God-given laws or commandments are sometimes suspect. "
* Ezekiel 14:9 "And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, And I will stretch out my hand upon him, And will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. "
* 1 Kings 22:23 "Now therefore, Behold, The LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, And the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee. "
Doesn"t that beat all?
2. People still have to prove that this "god" exists for any truth to be truthful.
3. If people were to do as they please, Then there would be no need, Necessity, Requirement for this rule book. Religion is invented to explain the unexplained and for most of them, Though not all, Christianity is included with this, Along comes this sty of pigeon toe following" First comes power and then along with that power trickles down fear, And with that fear trickles down control just as is perfectly described in the insipid control machine bible.

"But what if they are bad decisions and you ant to go back on them? Everything god did especially with his "regrets" were obviously not good decisions. "

I know what you said" we"re speaking of god only. No one or nothing else. When you say "you", This would mean me. I cannot partake in this because I am not god. I cannot travel back in time nor forwards. That"s the entire point. OK different wording here and once again, This isn"t mine" If god travels forward in time he will travel past his choices made. Therefore how will he have known what his choices were to have been made to make them? Its worded differently from "Your unproven god does not have free will. If this unproven god knows his future this means he knows what his choices are before they have been made. This is NOT free will. " In other words it would simply be silly for god to suddenly "stop" in time at the very moment he was to have made this or that choice such as to flood the earth, For which he repented, A silly notion if a god is a god, In which never happened in the first place and say "Ah ha, So those are what my choices are. " Don"t you see how utterly ridiculous that is?

""However, If you go back in time and can interact with yourself"" OK then that would mean more than one god. So that ideal can automatically be cancelled out. "

"Well God isn't real, But if he was I don't think going back in time would make another God. " That"s what you suggested. I"m just following your path. But I agree, No more than one god. And god, If all knowing and all powerful would not need or require a time machine to travel through time that is if this god is a god.
"Then god would thus realize that there would be no point to travel back in time and meet himself. " He can"t if there is only one god. But suppose he were to travel back in time and meet himself - over and over and over again etc. What exactly would this unproven god talk to with himself, If anything if this unproven god is supposed to know everything?

Well according to the idiot hypocritical contradictory bible its unproven god character does change its mind in quite a few verses AND it doesn"t in quite a few verses. DDO won"t let me show them because its a listing and it hates listings like these. But all you have to do is google bible contradictions and look for "The Secular Web".
GE 6:6. EX 32:14, NU 14:20, 1SA 15:35, 2SA 24:16 God does change his mind.
NU 23:19-20, 1SA 15:29, JA 1:17 God does not change his mind.

You know, God traveling through time would be a great DDO topic.

"My previous argument addresses this and makes your statement false. " Actually it doesn"t. Watch the vidies. But yee are right. God is NOT REAL because if he was, This blatant ego trip throughout the bible would never play a game of hide-n-go-seek and communicate through code, And because of its need to boaster its fat ego would simply show itself.

Yeah so give the vidies a look-see because they most certainly have a lot more to say than I ever could.

* "With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, That takes religion. " Steven Weinberg
* "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. " Voltaire
* "Who's more the fool? The fool? Or the fool who follows him? " Name who stated that?
* Exodus 34:14 "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, Whose name is Jealous, Is a jealous God:"
* "You"ve got 3 religions of peace all worshiping the same god of love and forgiveness, And yet they"ve been at war, Continuously, Ever since their inceptions. " Aron Ra
* "Its called faith because its not knowledge. " Christopher Hitchens

Please always tc and haveth thee fun -Michael
zapshe

Con

I watched the videos since you seem to be certain it would be able to provide more information. I'll reply to it after replying to your statements.

"I"m so tempted to cut teens of my list from interviews because they really don"t have a sense of truth. "
Including little old me?
"Sure there"s a third option. Suicide. But not if that option is taken away. . . No. That rule was already in place that she couldn"t. "
You can't take away options like that, Not really. She can make in-between decisions in which she takes the risk of trying to take them all out (even though she obviously would likely fail). She's taking the chance thinking she can't possibly let her children die so she'll fight for them and if she fails she will die and won't have to watch it. Unless she's tied up of course. In this case, Suicide is always a option. Many think you need tools or something, But if you chew your own tongue there's a high chance of bleeding out and dying without prompt medical attention.

"The gunman"s free will is governed by others free will to do harm. "

There's always choice. The gunman could easily not do it. Imagine being the leader of an army that won't do inhuman actions just because "they were following orders", I suppose I have my own pipe dreams.

Either way, I think free will is being mis-represented. Free will is the INNATE ability to decide for oneself. Sure, There are situations where there isn't really much one can do physically or to solve their situation, But that doesn't mean they've lost free will. They've only lost the ability to act in the certain situation. Free will is more about the fact that you can think through your options, Decide to act or not act, And perhaps to be able to think outside the box. Sometimes options will be limited or the situation is out of your control all together. This doesn't mean you've lost free will, It simply means the power over the situation was not with you.

"I do and don"t see what you are saying. There"s problems with this ideal. 1. The god of the bible as in print plays tricks, Lies, And deceives his prophets. This means that the supposed god of the bible does this to everybody and cannot be trusted. Atheists brutalize the god of the bible for this and rightly so"

Yes, I often ask people "what if God lied to you? " and their only defense is "he didn't because the [insert holy book name] says so. " However, I do think that such a divine being wouldn't be that interested in interacting with humans to begin with, Let alone deceive them. That would be a petty sort of God, Not an all knowing creator.

"In other words it would simply be silly for god to suddenly "stop" in time at the very moment he was to have made this or that choice such as to flood the earth, For which he repented, A silly notion if a god is a god, In which never happened in the first place and say "Ah ha, So those are what my choices are. " Don"t you see how utterly ridiculous that is? "

Yes, I gave you a new angle to look at it since God shouldn't be bound by our limitations. Our consciousness can only exist in one moment in time, The present. For example, If I go to the future and kill the future me, I didn't really kill myself. Why? Because as soon as there were two of us, Our consciousness became different.

Imagine you were to go back in time to fix something, Meaning the problem is fixed and you never went back in time to fix it. Let's assume this doesn't create a paradox but instead you (the extra you that solved the issue and now shouldn't exist) disappears. You just died. Sure, There's still a you in the universe, But you still died. Your consciousness and the one in the other you are NOT the same.

There's no reason to think God would work like this. In my argument, I presented that God's consciousness is uniform throughout time. He exists in all moments in time. He doesn't need to go back in time because all his conscious minds would be linked no matter past/present/future. Again, A video game I mentioned explored this concept with a creature.

The Longest Journey series is great and I recommend playing it if you can. Here's a wiki on the character:

https://tlj. Fandom. Com/wiki/Abnaxus

"[He] sees all times as one, But he holds his rank as ambassador because he, Alone among his people, Is trained to focus on one particular moment and therefore talk with people who 'flow with time'. "

He says this at some point:

"No, Do not be confused. To speak to you is oftentimes a difficult task for me, For I may answer questions not yet asked, Or questions asked a time ago. "

This is how God would be. He wouldn't be limited to the flow of time but rather transcends it. All versions of God would have the updated conscious the past/present/future him.

"Well according to the idiot hypocritical contradictory bible its unproven god character does change its mind in quite a few verses AND it doesn"t in quite a few verses. "

Well yea, But if we look at an ideal God that wasn't made up on the spot by some people thousands of years ago then we can have an actual philosophical debate.

"Actually it doesn"t. Watch the vidies. "

It does because changing one's mind doesn't require time travel with this theory.

Let's delve into the first video: Apple/Orange - If God knows your decision are you physically capable of making another decision?

Yes, As long as you knew what you would have chosen you can change your decision. If God were to introduce ANYTHING that was not present at the time of the decision making, It can change. For example, God tells the person what he's destined to choose or God tells him, "Are you sure you want to choose that one! ? "

Now, You say, "well that means God isn't all knowing! " Well, Not really. God will know the outcome of what would happen if he doesn't interfere and the outcome that will happen if he does interfere. You still have free will because you're making the decisions yourself, But God is all knowing so he knows exactly how every variable in play would affect your decision making. The future isn't set in stone with God. The only thing you know is that God knows ALL possible futures. There's a future in which he doesn't interfere and a future in which he does interfere (the future changes every time he interferes but he already knows what kind of future will result from it).

Next Video: If you put a rat in a predetermined location with knowledge of all possible outcomes, Is anything they do the result of free will?

Yes. Lets say I want to die and someone else wants to be a rock star. We both have knowledge of all possibilities in our lives therefore I choose a path leading to death in the way I want and the other takes a path that leads to being a rock star. The free will aspect doesn't disappear because you already know the outcome. The whole point is that people can a lot of times already predict the outcome of certain actions but the free will part kicks in when they decide what to do based on the outcome they want.

The second part of the video is the same as the previous one.

I didn't watch the third video since God's morality isn't very interesting to me. No God in any religion is real and so studying some make believe God's morality is kind of boring.
Debate Round No. 4
35 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by zapshe 2 years ago
zapshe
"OOooppppsss sorry about that I noticed I said "Pay attention kiddies" I never meant that towards you. Its simply a copy and paste that I've long since prepared that I've used time and time again. My miss-steak. I really appreciate a very good intelligent good educated argument that is challenging and wow do you give me one, Unlike nearly all. It is most appreciated. Thanx. "

No worries, I assumed the insults weren't at me ^-^.
Posted by backwardseden 2 years ago
backwardseden
OOooppppsss sorry about that I noticed I said "Pay attention kiddies" I never meant that towards you. Its simply a copy and paste that I've long since prepared that I've used time and time again. My miss-steak. I really appreciate a very good intelligent good educated argument that is challenging and wow do you give me one, Unlike nearly all. It is most appreciated. Thanx.
Posted by zapshe 2 years ago
zapshe
I don't know the God of the Bible that well. Again, I was talking about an ideal God. But I suppose we can agree to disagree.
Posted by backwardseden 2 years ago
backwardseden
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, Brethren beloved of the Lord, Because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Jeremiah 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
-----
" "Does God know or does He not know that a certain individual will be good or bad? If thou sayest 'He knows', Then it necessarily follows that [that] man is compelled to act as God knew beforehand he would act, Otherwise God's knowledge would be imperfect. "" Moses Maimonides.

From wikipedia "Argument from Free Will"
An obvious criticism of God being outside of time is that this does not seem to grant free will. Predestination, Regardless of how God perceives time, Still seems to mean a person's actions will be determined. A logical formulation of this criticism might go as follows:[2]
God timelessly knows choice "C" that a human would claim to "make freely".
If C is in the timeless realm, Then it is now-necessary that C.
If it is now-necessary that C, Then C cannot be otherwise (this is the definition of "necessary"). That is, There are no actual "possibilities" due to predestination.
If you cannot do otherwise when you act, You do not act freely (Principle of Alternate Possibilities)
Therefore, When you do an act, You will not do it freely.

Das ist eat 4 now. Please always tc and haveth thee fun -Michael
Posted by backwardseden 2 years ago
backwardseden
Here's some passages in the bible which proves that you have absolutely no Free Will. Pay attention kiddies"

Genesis 2: 17 "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, Thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. "
Genesis 3: 2 "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, Neither shall ye touch it, Lest ye die.
Threatening someone with death IS NOT a choice of Free Will.

Matthew 10: 19 "But when they deliver you up, Take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
Matthew 10: 20 "For it is not ye that speak, But the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. "

Romans 8: 28 - 30 "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, To them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, That he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, Them he also called: and whom he called, Them he also justified: and whom he justified, Them he also glorified. "

Deuteronomy 13:4 "4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, And fear him, And keep his commandments, And obey his voice, And ye shall serve him, And cleave unto him. "

2 Timothy 1:9 "Who hath saved us, And called us with an holy calling, Not according to our works, But according to his own purpose and grace, Which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, "

Ephesians 1:4-5 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, That we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, According to the good pleasure of his will,
Posted by backwardseden 2 years ago
backwardseden
Once again this god loves hate, Evil and pain if he allows free will in which this so-called whacko god can easily remove all of that. Nah. AND he gives the power to first time offenders, No exceptions to commit their crimes, No exceptions, None. That's free will. Really? Especially when daddy is raping his 4 year old daughter while punching her in the face and the daughter gas NO FREE WILL whatsoever to SCREAM and get away. AND DADDY can do this sometimes for decades.
What about getting cancer? What about being glued to a wheelchair from birth? What about autism? What about being stung by a box jellyfish? That's the free will of god. What about an entire family of 5 being murdered by daddy who decides to go on a rampage with his guns because this ignorant country, Namely republicans, Does nothing to curb guns? Yeah. God gives this jerk Free Will to murder his entire family. Yeah its this family's Free Will to be murdered - correct? Oh so that means god gives Free Will to Hitler, Hong Xiuquan, Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin etc etc. And since when did the victims have Free Will to be mass murdered? What about millions of other examples? You have the intelligence and education to fully understand and get that something isn't quite right and that something is indeed screwed up here.
Yeah right, Like god is really going to take the chance at someone who is not on track to go ahead a go off the grid and ruin his supposed almighty "plan"? What"s the point in being god if there isn"t that control? What"s the point if that plan is disrupted by some fool who has Free Will and goes ahead with his Free Will and ruins god"s plan because he has Free Will?
Another thing. . . Do you really think that if god can create the universe in 6 days, That he is NOT going to control you and NOT know exactly what your choices/ Free Will choices will be/ are? Of course he is. So he controls your exact choices/ free will and knows exactly what you will be doing before you will be doing it.
Posted by zapshe 2 years ago
zapshe
"If god and or some "controller" exists, Then free will does not exist. "

I'm fairly certain I proved that this isn't the case in terms of God. Free Will may be limited with a controller, But God isn't controlling anyone. There are things he doesn't want you to do (like bang your neighbor's wife), But he isn't going to try and stop you.

"Then god has chosen ALL outcomes. "

God didn't "choose" the outcome. If I see a bus and car on the street and KNOW they'll hit eachother, I didn't choose that outcome. Of course, God could always intervene and change things, But he doesn't.

"Why? And how are we responsible when its a god that orchestrated this s--t, Put it in motion and knew we couldn"t change it? How is this on us? Tracie Harris"

Well again, He knew it would happen but knew because he could take into account everything that would make us (with free will) do. If I punch a buff guy, I can be fairly certain he's going to fight me. Just because I knew his decision didn't mean I took away his free will.

And we always have the choice, It's just that God already knows the choice we'll make. The person you quoted says "and knew we couldn't change it". That's not quite it. If I've already made a decision to kill someone, I can't change that decision once I've killed them! The point is to not do it to begin with. The decision of being "bad/evil" should be avoided. Some people don't avoid them. It's not that they didn't have the choice, But that God already knew what their choice would be.
Posted by backwardseden 2 years ago
backwardseden
put it in motion and knew we couldn"t change it? How is this on us? Tracie Harris

"Your question was regarding free will as an argument for allowing suffering. That's when you get into the problem of evil. Now the problem of evil as we all know is not an argument that demonstrates that no God exists or that god exists. What it demonstrates is that god is your God is an a$$. What she's telling you is she believes in a God, And I assume she worships this God? Its like is she 'happy' about her god? " Caller: "Oh oh yeah everything except for the old testament. " Tracie "In other words what she is saying is 'I love this God who believes that the free will of the rapist is more important than the free will of the child being raped. That I think that its worth it to have a child be raped because I really really put a high value on a rapist's free will. "" Tracie Harris

"When she dies does she get to go to heaven? If she gets to go to heaven will she be happy? And she"ll probably say "yes". And you say "Will you be able to choose and do anything you want while you are in heaven? " And she"ll say "yes. " And so you are basically saying "you"ll have free will in heaven? " So you have free will in heaven and no one is being hurt, Raped, So you can do anything you want and no one gets hurt. If god has that power in heaven, He must have that power on earth. So he"s chose not to set that condition/ toggle switch which means he"s a dick. " Phil Ferguson

"Could god have made the world and not suffering? And if they say "no" then he"s not all powerful. If they say "yes", Then why didn"t he? Its a constant thing. There"s multiple ways to come at it. " Phil Ferguson

The thing is EVIL DOESN'T HAVE TO EXIST!

Tell me, What do you think of plants and trees? Do you think they have consciousness? After all it is proven that some do have communication and take care of their young. So if they have consciousness, Do they have free will?

Please always tc and haveth thee fun -Micha
Posted by backwardseden 2 years ago
backwardseden
If god and or some "controller" exists, Then free will does not exist. If there is nothing like that then free will does exist. Personally, Of course I'd like to think and believe that free will does exist and that I have a choice. But that unfortunately brings up the problem of evil in which case the third vidie addresses in full detail with lots of humor.
Here's a few interesting quotes (yes they are religious). . .
"Here"s the problem with the "Free Will" thing" If god created the universe, And god knew everything that would happen in the universe before he created it, Then god has chosen ALL outcomes. He selected for every for every outcome" Every child that is sexually molested, Every person who is murdered, Every genocide that happened, God sat there browsing through his possible universes and said "I want the one with the genocides and the rapes and the child abuses and the hate and the you know, He picked it, All of it! The global warming, I want earthquakes, He knew this would occur and he did it, Right? Even though there"s passages in the bible where god doesn't know stuff, K like there"s times when god causes the flood, Says he ---REGRETTED MAKING MAN---! How do you regret something that early on that this is what I want to have happen? God wants all of this to happen. He knew it would happen. And he chose for this universe. He knew Adam and Eve would eat of this fruit, He knew man would fall and all of this destruction. Right? He knew it. And yet somehow "I"m sorry I did this. " Like what you ---knew--- what was going to happen? It worked out exactly like god knew what was going to happen. And then he killed everybody on the planet for --THEIR-- screw ups. Its completely messed up. Yeah but he knew! He knew he would end up slaughtering ever human being, Man woman, Child, Baby on the planet! Why would he select a universe where all this garbage was going to happen? Why? And how are we responsible when its a god that orchestrated this s--t,
Posted by zapshe 2 years ago
zapshe
"Regardless if the god of the bible exists, Free will does not exist. "

Are you arguing now that Free Will in general doesn't exist? If so, I'd say that's wrong. You're replying to my comments, Starting debates, And I'm sure a whole bunch of other things that you CHOSE to do. Moreover, There are many things that once you decide on, There are a bunch of other things to decide on as well. Lets say you decide to plan for a Christmas party (free will), So now you have to pick what decoration to use, What food to bring, Etc. . All those sub-decisions will also come from free will. You'll see what you like, What you think other people will like, And try to make a decision off that. Or maybe you'll make a decision based of solely what you or others like.

There are many ways to go about things and people choose their own path. It's not always the most logical path and it's not always the right one, But they choose it (even if they know this), That's free will.

Some situations may be able to take it away, But it's an innate trait that we have.
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