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The 613 commandents

rosends
Posts: 478
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10/29/2017 11:54:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
In Jewish thinking, there are what we call 613 commandments (the "Taryag mitzvot"). However, it is important to note that even in biblical/temple times, there was no expectation that every person observed every commandment. If you take even a cursory look at the list

http://www.jewfaq.org...

you will see that some are observed by the average person passively, some are easily done during the course of daily life, and some are for specialized times, places and/or people so they are simply not incumbent upon the average person.

It is also essential to understand that each of these 613 serves as a foundation for other "rules" which govern daily life. There are codes of law which are just as binding, and provide the detail about how to live, but which are not explicitly listed as divine commandment. So while the list of textual mitzvot says simply to sanctify the sabbath, we have an entire corpus of law about exactly HOW one does that. The oral law clarifies and explains the process and method by which one can follow the written law. The one without the other is useless.

So if someone says that the expectation was that every person "keep" all 613, that is inevitably in error.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 6,043
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10/29/2017 12:29:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/29/2017 11:54:38 AM, rosends wrote:
In Jewish thinking, there are what we call 613 commandments (the "Taryag mitzvot"). However, it is important to note that even in biblical/temple times, there was no expectation that every person observed every commandment. If you take even a cursory look at the list

http://www.jewfaq.org...

you will see that some are observed by the average person passively, some are easily done during the course of daily life, and some are for specialized times, places and/or people so they are simply not incumbent upon the average person.

It is also essential to understand that each of these 613 serves as a foundation for other "rules" which govern daily life. There are codes of law which are just as binding, and provide the detail about how to live, but which are not explicitly listed as divine commandment. So while the list of textual mitzvot says simply to sanctify the sabbath, we have an entire corpus of law about exactly HOW one does that. The oral law clarifies and explains the process and method by which one can follow the written law. The one without the other is useless.

So if someone says that the expectation was that every person "keep" all 613, that is inevitably in error.

I read some interesting things in that link thanks.
12_13
Posts: 2,575
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10/29/2017 7:36:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/29/2017 11:54:38 AM, rosends wrote:
So if someone says that the expectation was that every person "keep" all 613, that is inevitably in error.

That is probably true, after all, when God made covenant with Jews, through Moses, there were just 10 commandments that were condition for the covenant.

Yahweh said to Moses, "Write you these words: for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." He was there with Yahweh forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread, nor drank water. He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
Exodus 34:27-28
rosends
Posts: 478
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10/29/2017 9:29:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/29/2017 7:36:39 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 10/29/2017 11:54:38 AM, rosends wrote:
So if someone says that the expectation was that every person "keep" all 613, that is inevitably in error.

That is probably true, after all, when God made covenant with Jews, through Moses, there were just 10 commandments that were condition for the covenant.

Yahweh said to Moses, "Write you these words: for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." He was there with Yahweh forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread, nor drank water. He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
Exodus 34:27-28

Before the ten commandments were given, others had already been relayed through Moses to the people, starting in Ex. 12:2.
12_13
Posts: 2,575
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10/30/2017 10:53:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/29/2017 9:29:49 PM, rosends wrote:
At 10/29/2017 7:36:39 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 10/29/2017 11:54:38 AM, rosends wrote:
So if someone says that the expectation was that every person "keep" all 613, that is inevitably in error.

That is probably true, after all, when God made covenant with Jews, through Moses, there were just 10 commandments that were condition for the covenant.

Yahweh said to Moses, "Write you these words: for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." He was there with Yahweh forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread, nor drank water. He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
Exodus 34:27-28

Before the ten commandments were given, others had already been relayed through Moses to the people, starting in Ex. 12:2.

But still the ten commandments are the words of the covenant.
rosends
Posts: 478
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10/30/2017 11:27:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/30/2017 10:53:38 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 10/29/2017 9:29:49 PM, rosends wrote:
At 10/29/2017 7:36:39 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 10/29/2017 11:54:38 AM, rosends wrote:
So if someone says that the expectation was that every person "keep" all 613, that is inevitably in error.

That is probably true, after all, when God made covenant with Jews, through Moses, there were just 10 commandments that were condition for the covenant.

Yahweh said to Moses, "Write you these words: for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." He was there with Yahweh forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread, nor drank water. He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
Exodus 34:27-28

Before the ten commandments were given, others had already been relayed through Moses to the people, starting in Ex. 12:2.

But still the ten commandments are the words of the covenant.
I'm not sure why you are so fixated on the word "covenant." There were already laws (including all sorts detailed in chapter 34 directly before those verses) and there would be even more listed textually. Other covenants were already in place, and more would be made. In fact, Moses, 10 chapters earlier had a "book of the covenant" in which he wrote all sorts of laws that the people agreed to establishing a covenant which included much ore than just 10 commandments. The point is, the laws are extensive and binding.
bulproof
Posts: 36,669
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10/31/2017 1:20:23 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/30/2017 11:27:49 PM, rosends wrote:
At 10/30/2017 10:53:38 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 10/29/2017 9:29:49 PM, rosends wrote:
At 10/29/2017 7:36:39 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 10/29/2017 11:54:38 AM, rosends wrote:
So if someone says that the expectation was that every person "keep" all 613, that is inevitably in error.

That is probably true, after all, when God made covenant with Jews, through Moses, there were just 10 commandments that were condition for the covenant.

Yahweh said to Moses, "Write you these words: for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." He was there with Yahweh forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread, nor drank water. He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
Exodus 34:27-28

Before the ten commandments were given, others had already been relayed through Moses to the people, starting in Ex. 12:2.

But still the ten commandments are the words of the covenant.
I'm not sure why you are so fixated on the word "covenant." There were already laws (including all sorts detailed in chapter 34 directly before those verses) and there would be even more listed textually. Other covenants were already in place, and more would be made. In fact, Moses, 10 chapters earlier had a "book of the covenant" in which he wrote all sorts of laws that the people agreed to establishing a covenant which included much ore than just 10 commandments. The point is, the laws are extensive and binding.
Moses was a fictional character and your 613 laws were created by ignorant, superstitious, primitive, misogynistic desert dwellers.
Pass.
rosends
Posts: 478
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10/31/2017 10:15:57 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/31/2017 1:20:23 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/30/2017 11:27:49 PM, rosends wrote:
At 10/30/2017 10:53:38 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 10/29/2017 9:29:49 PM, rosends wrote:
At 10/29/2017 7:36:39 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 10/29/2017 11:54:38 AM, rosends wrote:
So if someone says that the expectation was that every person "keep" all 613, that is inevitably in error.

That is probably true, after all, when God made covenant with Jews, through Moses, there were just 10 commandments that were condition for the covenant.

Yahweh said to Moses, "Write you these words: for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." He was there with Yahweh forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread, nor drank water. He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
Exodus 34:27-28

Before the ten commandments were given, others had already been relayed through Moses to the people, starting in Ex. 12:2.

But still the ten commandments are the words of the covenant.
I'm not sure why you are so fixated on the word "covenant." There were already laws (including all sorts detailed in chapter 34 directly before those verses) and there would be even more listed textually. Other covenants were already in place, and more would be made. In fact, Moses, 10 chapters earlier had a "book of the covenant" in which he wrote all sorts of laws that the people agreed to establishing a covenant which included much ore than just 10 commandments. The point is, the laws are extensive and binding.
Moses was a fictional character and your 613 laws were created by ignorant, superstitious, primitive, misogynistic desert dwellers.
Pass.
So noted and I appreciate your input. What it means to me is that you are less likely to make the rhetorical error that those who espouse other religions often make when they state claims about Judaism which are contrary to fact. Thank you.
Yongy
Posts: 1,734
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10/31/2017 1:44:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Of the 10 commandments the ones I give any credence to are:-

You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.
You shall not covet.

The one about honouring your parents is fine, if it means respecting them, always providing they are worthy of respect.
bulproof
Posts: 36,669
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10/31/2017 2:15:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/31/2017 10:15:57 AM, rosends wrote:
At 10/31/2017 1:20:23 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/30/2017 11:27:49 PM, rosends wrote:
At 10/30/2017 10:53:38 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 10/29/2017 9:29:49 PM, rosends wrote:
At 10/29/2017 7:36:39 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 10/29/2017 11:54:38 AM, rosends wrote:
So if someone says that the expectation was that every person "keep" all 613, that is inevitably in error.

That is probably true, after all, when God made covenant with Jews, through Moses, there were just 10 commandments that were condition for the covenant.

Yahweh said to Moses, "Write you these words: for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." He was there with Yahweh forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread, nor drank water. He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
Exodus 34:27-28

Before the ten commandments were given, others had already been relayed through Moses to the people, starting in Ex. 12:2.

But still the ten commandments are the words of the covenant.
I'm not sure why you are so fixated on the word "covenant." There were already laws (including all sorts detailed in chapter 34 directly before those verses) and there would be even more listed textually. Other covenants were already in place, and more would be made. In fact, Moses, 10 chapters earlier had a "book of the covenant" in which he wrote all sorts of laws that the people agreed to establishing a covenant which included much ore than just 10 commandments. The point is, the laws are extensive and binding.
Moses was a fictional character and your 613 laws were created by ignorant, superstitious, primitive, misogynistic desert dwellers.
Pass.
So noted and I appreciate your input. What it means to me is that you are less likely to make the rhetorical error that those who espouse other religions often make when they state claims about Judaism which are contrary to fact. Thank you.
Precisely! I only ever use facts.
Harikrish
Posts: 29,658
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10/31/2017 3:01:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/29/2017 11:54:38 AM, rosends wrote:
In Jewish thinking, there are what we call 613 commandments (the "Taryag mitzvot"). However, it is important to note that even in biblical/temple times, there was no expectation that every person observed every commandment. If you take even a cursory look at the list

http://www.jewfaq.org...

you will see that some are observed by the average person passively, some are easily done during the course of daily life, and some are for specialized times, places and/or people so they are simply not incumbent upon the average person.

It is also essential to understand that each of these 613 serves as a foundation for other "rules" which govern daily life. There are codes of law which are just as binding, and provide the detail about how to live, but which are not explicitly listed as divine commandment. So while the list of textual mitzvot says simply to sanctify the sabbath, we have an entire corpus of law about exactly HOW one does that. The oral law clarifies and explains the process and method by which one can follow the written law. The one without the other is useless.

So if someone says that the expectation was that every person "keep" all 613, that is inevitably in error.

There are a lot of dos and don'ts in the 613 commandments. But I could not find any commandment that tells Jews to be 'likeable'. With 3000 years of persecution, expulsion and antisemitism, one would think a commandment to be 'likeable' might have help Jews overcome the burden of 613 commandments that still left them undeserving of proper recognition throughout their history.

I don't mean to be disparaging. But would adding one more commandment to be likeable to the existing 613 be so difficult?
rosends
Posts: 478
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10/31/2017 3:46:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/31/2017 3:01:57 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/29/2017 11:54:38 AM, rosends wrote:
In Jewish thinking, there are what we call 613 commandments (the "Taryag mitzvot"). However, it is important to note that even in biblical/temple times, there was no expectation that every person observed every commandment. If you take even a cursory look at the list

http://www.jewfaq.org...

you will see that some are observed by the average person passively, some are easily done during the course of daily life, and some are for specialized times, places and/or people so they are simply not incumbent upon the average person.

It is also essential to understand that each of these 613 serves as a foundation for other "rules" which govern daily life. There are codes of law which are just as binding, and provide the detail about how to live, but which are not explicitly listed as divine commandment. So while the list of textual mitzvot says simply to sanctify the sabbath, we have an entire corpus of law about exactly HOW one does that. The oral law clarifies and explains the process and method by which one can follow the written law. The one without the other is useless.

So if someone says that the expectation was that every person "keep" all 613, that is inevitably in error.

There are a lot of dos and don'ts in the 613 commandments. But I could not find any commandment that tells Jews to be 'likeable'. With 3000 years of persecution, expulsion and antisemitism, one would think a commandment to be 'likeable' might have help Jews overcome the burden of 613 commandments that still left them undeserving of proper recognition throughout their history.

I don't mean to be disparaging. But would adding one more commandment to be likeable to the existing 613 be so difficult?

A few random responses. The first is that what you think of as being unlikable might not be the same as someone else's assessment. It is difficult to be "likable" to everyone equally, so a general law to be likable would be difficult to follow. Next is that there are many elements of Jewish law which instruct peaceful coexistence (even, to a degree fealty), kindness to all and an avoidance of behaviors which will create tension or conflict with all others. Next up is the idea that likability is not a function of religion and that the 63 commandments are not considered a burden. I am also not sure that it is reasonable to simplify years of oppression as being based in being unlikable. If that's how you see the world, then so be it. I don't think that that approach is the generally accepted one. Finally, one does not simply add a law to a divine canon for the sake of convenience.
Harikrish
Posts: 29,658
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10/31/2017 4:41:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/31/2017 3:46:44 PM, rosends wrote:
At 10/31/2017 3:01:57 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/29/2017 11:54:38 AM, rosends wrote:
In Jewish thinking, there are what we call 613 commandments (the "Taryag mitzvot"). However, it is important to note that even in biblical/temple times, there was no expectation that every person observed every commandment. If you take even a cursory look at the list

http://www.jewfaq.org...

you will see that some are observed by the average person passively, some are easily done during the course of daily life, and some are for specialized times, places and/or people so they are simply not incumbent upon the average person.

It is also essential to understand that each of these 613 serves as a foundation for other "rules" which govern daily life. There are codes of law which are just as binding, and provide the detail about how to live, but which are not explicitly listed as divine commandment. So while the list of textual mitzvot says simply to sanctify the sabbath, we have an entire corpus of law about exactly HOW one does that. The oral law clarifies and explains the process and method by which one can follow the written law. The one without the other is useless.

So if someone says that the expectation was that every person "keep" all 613, that is inevitably in error.

There are a lot of dos and don'ts in the 613 commandments. But I could not find any commandment that tells Jews to be 'likeable'. With 3000 years of persecution, expulsion and antisemitism, one would think a commandment to be 'likeable' might have help Jews overcome the burden of 613 commandments that still left them undeserving of proper recognition throughout their history.

I don't mean to be disparaging. But would adding one more commandment to be likeable to the existing 613 be so difficult?

A few random responses. The first is that what you think of as being unlikable might not be the same as someone else's assessment. It is difficult to be "likable" to everyone equally, so a general law to be likable would be difficult to follow. Next is that there are many elements of Jewish law which instruct peaceful coexistence (even, to a degree fealty), kindness to all and an avoidance of behaviors which will create tension or conflict with all others. Next up is the idea that likability is not a function of religion and that the 63 commandments are not considered a burden. I am also not sure that it is reasonable to simplify years of oppression as being based in being unlikable. If that's how you see the world, then so be it. I don't think that that approach is the generally accepted one. Finally, one does not simply add a law to a divine canon for the sake of convenience.

Are you saying the divine canon gave the Jews 613 commandments except the one that would make them 'likeable'? It is not hard to figure that being likeable reduces tension between peoples. But to be disliked, persecuted, expulsion and antisemitism for 3000 years would have got any Rabbi questioning the 613 other commandments that failed to achieve the goal to make Jews likeable.
SingularityofLight
Posts: 1,915
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10/31/2017 4:49:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/31/2017 4:41:54 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/31/2017 3:46:44 PM, rosends wrote:
At 10/31/2017 3:01:57 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/29/2017 11:54:38 AM, rosends wrote:
In Jewish thinking, there are what we call 613 commandments (the "Taryag mitzvot"). However, it is important to note that even in biblical/temple times, there was no expectation that every person observed every commandment. If you take even a cursory look at the list

http://www.jewfaq.org...

you will see that some are observed by the average person passively, some are easily done during the course of daily life, and some are for specialized times, places and/or people so they are simply not incumbent upon the average person.

It is also essential to understand that each of these 613 serves as a foundation for other "rules" which govern daily life. There are codes of law which are just as binding, and provide the detail about how to live, but which are not explicitly listed as divine commandment. So while the list of textual mitzvot says simply to sanctify the sabbath, we have an entire corpus of law about exactly HOW one does that. The oral law clarifies and explains the process and method by which one can follow the written law. The one without the other is useless.

So if someone says that the expectation was that every person "keep" all 613, that is inevitably in error.

There are a lot of dos and don'ts in the 613 commandments. But I could not find any commandment that tells Jews to be 'likeable'. With 3000 years of persecution, expulsion and antisemitism, one would think a commandment to be 'likeable' might have help Jews overcome the burden of 613 commandments that still left them undeserving of proper recognition throughout their history.

I don't mean to be disparaging. But would adding one more commandment to be likeable to the existing 613 be so difficult?

A few random responses. The first is that what you think of as being unlikable might not be the same as someone else's assessment. It is difficult to be "likable" to everyone equally, so a general law to be likable would be difficult to follow. Next is that there are many elements of Jewish law which instruct peaceful coexistence (even, to a degree fealty), kindness to all and an avoidance of behaviors which will create tension or conflict with all others. Next up is the idea that likability is not a function of religion and that the 63 commandments are not considered a burden. I am also not sure that it is reasonable to simplify years of oppression as being based in being unlikable. If that's how you see the world, then so be it. I don't think that that approach is the generally accepted one. Finally, one does not simply add a law to a divine canon for the sake of convenience.

Are you saying the divine canon gave the Jews 613 commandments except the one that would make them 'likeable'? It is not hard to figure that being likeable reduces tension between peoples. But to be disliked, persecuted, expulsion and antisemitism for 3000 years would have got any Rabbi questioning the 613 other commandments that failed to achieve the goal to make Jews likeable.

YHWH isn't likeable, why else would he promote racism through a chosen people. If YHWH isn't likeable why would he promote it in his chosen people?
Harikrish
Posts: 29,658
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10/31/2017 5:19:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/31/2017 4:49:51 PM, SingularityofLight wrote:
At 10/31/2017 4:41:54 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/31/2017 3:46:44 PM, rosends wrote:
At 10/31/2017 3:01:57 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/29/2017 11:54:38 AM, rosends wrote:
In Jewish thinking, there are what we call 613 commandments (the "Taryag mitzvot"). However, it is important to note that even in biblical/temple times, there was no expectation that every person observed every commandment. If you take even a cursory look at the list

http://www.jewfaq.org...

you will see that some are observed by the average person passively, some are easily done during the course of daily life, and some are for specialized times, places and/or people so they are simply not incumbent upon the average person.

It is also essential to understand that each of these 613 serves as a foundation for other "rules" which govern daily life. There are codes of law which are just as binding, and provide the detail about how to live, but which are not explicitly listed as divine commandment. So while the list of textual mitzvot says simply to sanctify the sabbath, we have an entire corpus of law about exactly HOW one does that. The oral law clarifies and explains the process and method by which one can follow the written law. The one without the other is useless.

So if someone says that the expectation was that every person "keep" all 613, that is inevitably in error.

There are a lot of dos and don'ts in the 613 commandments. But I could not find any commandment that tells Jews to be 'likeable'. With 3000 years of persecution, expulsion and antisemitism, one would think a commandment to be 'likeable' might have help Jews overcome the burden of 613 commandments that still left them undeserving of proper recognition throughout their history.

I don't mean to be disparaging. But would adding one more commandment to be likeable to the existing 613 be so difficult?

A few random responses. The first is that what you think of as being unlikable might not be the same as someone else's assessment. It is difficult to be "likable" to everyone equally, so a general law to be likable would be difficult to follow. Next is that there are many elements of Jewish law which instruct peaceful coexistence (even, to a degree fealty), kindness to all and an avoidance of behaviors which will create tension or conflict with all others. Next up is the idea that likability is not a function of religion and that the 63 commandments are not considered a burden. I am also not sure that it is reasonable to simplify years of oppression as being based in being unlikable. If that's how you see the world, then so be it. I don't think that that approach is the generally accepted one. Finally, one does not simply add a law to a divine canon for the sake of convenience.

Are you saying the divine canon gave the Jews 613 commandments except the one that would make them 'likeable'? It is not hard to figure that being likeable reduces tension between peoples. But to be disliked, persecuted, expulsion and antisemitism for 3000 years would have got any Rabbi questioning the 613 other commandments that failed to achieve the goal to make Jews likeable.

YHWH isn't likeable, why else would he promote racism through a chosen people. If YHWH isn't likeable why would he promote it in his chosen people?

But Christians love the God of the Bible. They even love the messiah whom the Jews rejected. But they stop when it comes to the Jewish people. Is it possible the Jews believe because they keep 613 commandments they don't have to be likeable? Their attitude of indifference and arrogance is why kosher candles are more popular than the people's fat that went into making it.
SingularityofLight
Posts: 1,915
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10/31/2017 5:26:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/31/2017 5:19:48 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/31/2017 4:49:51 PM, SingularityofLight wrote:
At 10/31/2017 4:41:54 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/31/2017 3:46:44 PM, rosends wrote:
At 10/31/2017 3:01:57 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/29/2017 11:54:38 AM, rosends wrote:
In Jewish thinking, there are what we call 613 commandments (the "Taryag mitzvot"). However, it is important to note that even in biblical/temple times, there was no expectation that every person observed every commandment. If you take even a cursory look at the list

http://www.jewfaq.org...

you will see that some are observed by the average person passively, some are easily done during the course of daily life, and some are for specialized times, places and/or people so they are simply not incumbent upon the average person.

It is also essential to understand that each of these 613 serves as a foundation for other "rules" which govern daily life. There are codes of law which are just as binding, and provide the detail about how to live, but which are not explicitly listed as divine commandment. So while the list of textual mitzvot says simply to sanctify the sabbath, we have an entire corpus of law about exactly HOW one does that. The oral law clarifies and explains the process and method by which one can follow the written law. The one without the other is useless.

So if someone says that the expectation was that every person "keep" all 613, that is inevitably in error.

There are a lot of dos and don'ts in the 613 commandments. But I could not find any commandment that tells Jews to be 'likeable'. With 3000 years of persecution, expulsion and antisemitism, one would think a commandment to be 'likeable' might have help Jews overcome the burden of 613 commandments that still left them undeserving of proper recognition throughout their history.

I don't mean to be disparaging. But would adding one more commandment to be likeable to the existing 613 be so difficult?

A few random responses. The first is that what you think of as being unlikable might not be the same as someone else's assessment. It is difficult to be "likable" to everyone equally, so a general law to be likable would be difficult to follow. Next is that there are many elements of Jewish law which instruct peaceful coexistence (even, to a degree fealty), kindness to all and an avoidance of behaviors which will create tension or conflict with all others. Next up is the idea that likability is not a function of religion and that the 63 commandments are not considered a burden. I am also not sure that it is reasonable to simplify years of oppression as being based in being unlikable. If that's how you see the world, then so be it. I don't think that that approach is the generally accepted one. Finally, one does not simply add a law to a divine canon for the sake of convenience.

Are you saying the divine canon gave the Jews 613 commandments except the one that would make them 'likeable'? It is not hard to figure that being likeable reduces tension between peoples. But to be disliked, persecuted, expulsion and antisemitism for 3000 years would have got any Rabbi questioning the 613 other commandments that failed to achieve the goal to make Jews likeable.

YHWH isn't likeable, why else would he promote racism through a chosen people. If YHWH isn't likeable why would he promote it in his chosen people?

But Christians love the God of the Bible. They even love the messiah whom the Jews rejected. But they stop when it comes to the Jewish people. Is it possible the Jews believe because they keep 613 commandments they don't have to be likeable? Their attitude of indifference and arrogance is why kosher candles are more popular than the people's fat that went into making it.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that most Christians "stop the love" when it comes to the Jewish people. Most are afraid of being cursed for not loving God's chosen people; why else was the nation of Isreal helped to form against all natural populations in the Middle East by the Christian U.S. and Britain.
Harikrish
Posts: 29,658
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10/31/2017 5:57:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/31/2017 5:26:38 PM, SingularityofLight wrote:
At 10/31/2017 5:19:48 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/31/2017 4:49:51 PM, SingularityofLight wrote:
At 10/31/2017 4:41:54 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/31/2017 3:46:44 PM, rosends wrote:
At 10/31/2017 3:01:57 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/29/2017 11:54:38 AM, rosends wrote:
In Jewish thinking, there are what we call 613 commandments (the "Taryag mitzvot"). However, it is important to note that even in biblical/temple times, there was no expectation that every person observed every commandment. If you take even a cursory look at the list

http://www.jewfaq.org...

you will see that some are observed by the average person passively, some are easily done during the course of daily life, and some are for specialized times, places and/or people so they are simply not incumbent upon the average person.

It is also essential to understand that each of these 613 serves as a foundation for other "rules" which govern daily life. There are codes of law which are just as binding, and provide the detail about how to live, but which are not explicitly listed as divine commandment. So while the list of textual mitzvot says simply to sanctify the sabbath, we have an entire corpus of law about exactly HOW one does that. The oral law clarifies and explains the process and method by which one can follow the written law. The one without the other is useless.

So if someone says that the expectation was that every person "keep" all 613, that is inevitably in error.

There are a lot of dos and don'ts in the 613 commandments. But I could not find any commandment that tells Jews to be 'likeable'. With 3000 years of persecution, expulsion and antisemitism, one would think a commandment to be 'likeable' might have help Jews overcome the burden of 613 commandments that still left them undeserving of proper recognition throughout their history.

I don't mean to be disparaging. But would adding one more commandment to be likeable to the existing 613 be so difficult?

A few random responses. The first is that what you think of as being unlikable might not be the same as someone else's assessment. It is difficult to be "likable" to everyone equally, so a general law to be likable would be difficult to follow. Next is that there are many elements of Jewish law which instruct peaceful coexistence (even, to a degree fealty), kindness to all and an avoidance of behaviors which will create tension or conflict with all others. Next up is the idea that likability is not a function of religion and that the 63 commandments are not considered a burden. I am also not sure that it is reasonable to simplify years of oppression as being based in being unlikable. If that's how you see the world, then so be it. I don't think that that approach is the generally accepted one. Finally, one does not simply add a law to a divine canon for the sake of convenience.

Are you saying the divine canon gave the Jews 613 commandments except the one that would make them 'likeable'? It is not hard to figure that being likeable reduces tension between peoples. But to be disliked, persecuted, expulsion and antisemitism for 3000 years would have got any Rabbi questioning the 613 other commandments that failed to achieve the goal to make Jews likeable.

YHWH isn't likeable, why else would he promote racism through a chosen people. If YHWH isn't likeable why would he promote it in his chosen people?

But Christians love the God of the Bible. They even love the messiah whom the Jews rejected. But they stop when it comes to the Jewish people. Is it possible the Jews believe because they keep 613 commandments they don't have to be likeable? Their attitude of indifference and arrogance is why kosher candles are more popular than the people's fat that went into making it.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that most Christians "stop the love" when it comes to the Jewish people. Most are afraid of being cursed for not loving God's chosen people; why else was the nation of Isreal helped to form against all natural populations in the Middle East by the Christian U.S. and Britain.

Christians aren't afraid of Jews. They see them as Christ killers. In fact the position most Christian Churches hold is the Jewish covenant was broken and the Israel spoken in the NT is the Christian Gentiles.
SingularityofLight
Posts: 1,915
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10/31/2017 6:08:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/31/2017 5:57:56 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/31/2017 5:26:38 PM, SingularityofLight wrote:
At 10/31/2017 5:19:48 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/31/2017 4:49:51 PM, SingularityofLight wrote:
At 10/31/2017 4:41:54 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/31/2017 3:46:44 PM, rosends wrote:
At 10/31/2017 3:01:57 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/29/2017 11:54:38 AM, rosends wrote:
In Jewish thinking, there are what we call 613 commandments (the "Taryag mitzvot"). However, it is important to note that even in biblical/temple times, there was no expectation that every person observed every commandment. If you take even a cursory look at the list

http://www.jewfaq.org...

you will see that some are observed by the average person passively, some are easily done during the course of daily life, and some are for specialized times, places and/or people so they are simply not incumbent upon the average person.

It is also essential to understand that each of these 613 serves as a foundation for other "rules" which govern daily life. There are codes of law which are just as binding, and provide the detail about how to live, but which are not explicitly listed as divine commandment. So while the list of textual mitzvot says simply to sanctify the sabbath, we have an entire corpus of law about exactly HOW one does that. The oral law clarifies and explains the process and method by which one can follow the written law. The one without the other is useless.

So if someone says that the expectation was that every person "keep" all 613, that is inevitably in error.

There are a lot of dos and don'ts in the 613 commandments. But I could not find any commandment that tells Jews to be 'likeable'. With 3000 years of persecution, expulsion and antisemitism, one would think a commandment to be 'likeable' might have help Jews overcome the burden of 613 commandments that still left them undeserving of proper recognition throughout their history.

I don't mean to be disparaging. But would adding one more commandment to be likeable to the existing 613 be so difficult?

A few random responses. The first is that what you think of as being unlikable might not be the same as someone else's assessment. It is difficult to be "likable" to everyone equally, so a general law to be likable would be difficult to follow. Next is that there are many elements of Jewish law which instruct peaceful coexistence (even, to a degree fealty), kindness to all and an avoidance of behaviors which will create tension or conflict with all others. Next up is the idea that likability is not a function of religion and that the 63 commandments are not considered a burden. I am also not sure that it is reasonable to simplify years of oppression as being based in being unlikable. If that's how you see the world, then so be it. I don't think that that approach is the generally accepted one. Finally, one does not simply add a law to a divine canon for the sake of convenience.

Are you saying the divine canon gave the Jews 613 commandments except the one that would make them 'likeable'? It is not hard to figure that being likeable reduces tension between peoples. But to be disliked, persecuted, expulsion and antisemitism for 3000 years would have got any Rabbi questioning the 613 other commandments that failed to achieve the goal to make Jews likeable.

YHWH isn't likeable, why else would he promote racism through a chosen people. If YHWH isn't likeable why would he promote it in his chosen people?

But Christians love the God of the Bible. They even love the messiah whom the Jews rejected. But they stop when it comes to the Jewish people. Is it possible the Jews believe because they keep 613 commandments they don't have to be likeable? Their attitude of indifference and arrogance is why kosher candles are more popular than the people's fat that went into making it.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that most Christians "stop the love" when it comes to the Jewish people. Most are afraid of being cursed for not loving God's chosen people; why else was the nation of Isreal helped to form against all natural populations in the Middle East by the Christian U.S. and Britain.

Christians aren't afraid of Jews. They see them as Christ killers. In fact the position most Christian Churches hold is the Jewish covenant was broken and the Israel spoken in the NT is the Christian Gentiles.

You're talking pre-Hitler times when many Catholics fostered that abominable view of Jews. But the Holocaust was YHWH's idea to get the hardened Jewish population their own abominable state. YHWH has turned the Christian view to a very pro-Isreal stance today. There isn't a nation on the earth today that isn't harmed politically by the militancy of Israeli Zionism. I love the secular Jewish population of the world. They add a lot to the art and culture of society. I hate Zionism though.
rosends
Posts: 478
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10/31/2017 6:15:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/31/2017 4:41:54 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/31/2017 3:46:44 PM, rosends wrote:
At 10/31/2017 3:01:57 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/29/2017 11:54:38 AM, rosends wrote:
In Jewish thinking, there are what we call 613 commandments (the "Taryag mitzvot"). However, it is important to note that even in biblical/temple times, there was no expectation that every person observed every commandment. If you take even a cursory look at the list

http://www.jewfaq.org...

you will see that some are observed by the average person passively, some are easily done during the course of daily life, and some are for specialized times, places and/or people so they are simply not incumbent upon the average person.

It is also essential to understand that each of these 613 serves as a foundation for other "rules" which govern daily life. There are codes of law which are just as binding, and provide the detail about how to live, but which are not explicitly listed as divine commandment. So while the list of textual mitzvot says simply to sanctify the sabbath, we have an entire corpus of law about exactly HOW one does that. The oral law clarifies and explains the process and method by which one can follow the written law. The one without the other is useless.

So if someone says that the expectation was that every person "keep" all 613, that is inevitably in error.

There are a lot of dos and don'ts in the 613 commandments. But I could not find any commandment that tells Jews to be 'likeable'. With 3000 years of persecution, expulsion and antisemitism, one would think a commandment to be 'likeable' might have help Jews overcome the burden of 613 commandments that still left them undeserving of proper recognition throughout their history.

I don't mean to be disparaging. But would adding one more commandment to be likeable to the existing 613 be so difficult?

A few random responses. The first is that what you think of as being unlikable might not be the same as someone else's assessment. It is difficult to be "likable" to everyone equally, so a general law to be likable would be difficult to follow. Next is that there are many elements of Jewish law which instruct peaceful coexistence (even, to a degree fealty), kindness to all and an avoidance of behaviors which will create tension or conflict with all others. Next up is the idea that likability is not a function of religion and that the 63 commandments are not considered a burden. I am also not sure that it is reasonable to simplify years of oppression as being based in being unlikable. If that's how you see the world, then so be it. I don't think that that approach is the generally accepted one. Finally, one does not simply add a law to a divine canon for the sake of convenience.

Are you saying the divine canon gave the Jews 613 commandments except the one that would make them 'likeable'? It is not hard to figure that being likeable reduces tension between peoples. But to be disliked, persecuted, expulsion and antisemitism for 3000 years would have got any Rabbi questioning the 613 other commandments that failed to achieve the goal to make Jews likeable.

There are 613 commandments (essentially). None tells anyone to like ice cream. None commands us to stop and smell the roses. None says my name has to be Biff. Similarly, there is no command that tells anyone to be likable, left handed or politically conservative. This rabbi certainly doesn't question the 613 on the basis of some phantom notion of likability.
Harikrish
Posts: 29,658
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10/31/2017 6:44:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/31/2017 6:15:38 PM, rosends wrote:
At 10/31/2017 4:41:54 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/31/2017 3:46:44 PM, rosends wrote:
At 10/31/2017 3:01:57 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/29/2017 11:54:38 AM, rosends wrote:
In Jewish thinking, there are what we call 613 commandments (the "Taryag mitzvot"). However, it is important to note that even in biblical/temple times, there was no expectation that every person observed every commandment. If you take even a cursory look at the list

http://www.jewfaq.org...

you will see that some are observed by the average person passively, some are easily done during the course of daily life, and some are for specialized times, places and/or people so they are simply not incumbent upon the average person.

It is also essential to understand that each of these 613 serves as a foundation for other "rules" which govern daily life. There are codes of law which are just as binding, and provide the detail about how to live, but which are not explicitly listed as divine commandment. So while the list of textual mitzvot says simply to sanctify the sabbath, we have an entire corpus of law about exactly HOW one does that. The oral law clarifies and explains the process and method by which one can follow the written law. The one without the other is useless.

So if someone says that the expectation was that every person "keep" all 613, that is inevitably in error.

There are a lot of dos and don'ts in the 613 commandments. But I could not find any commandment that tells Jews to be 'likeable'. With 3000 years of persecution, expulsion and antisemitism, one would think a commandment to be 'likeable' might have help Jews overcome the burden of 613 commandments that still left them undeserving of proper recognition throughout their history.

I don't mean to be disparaging. But would adding one more commandment to be likeable to the existing 613 be so difficult?

A few random responses. The first is that what you think of as being unlikable might not be the same as someone else's assessment. It is difficult to be "likable" to everyone equally, so a general law to be likable would be difficult to follow. Next is that there are many elements of Jewish law which instruct peaceful coexistence (even, to a degree fealty), kindness to all and an avoidance of behaviors which will create tension or conflict with all others. Next up is the idea that likability is not a function of religion and that the 63 commandments are not considered a burden. I am also not sure that it is reasonable to simplify years of oppression as being based in being unlikable. If that's how you see the world, then so be it. I don't think that that approach is the generally accepted one. Finally, one does not simply add a law to a divine canon for the sake of convenience.

Are you saying the divine canon gave the Jews 613 commandments except the one that would make them 'likeable'? It is not hard to figure that being likeable reduces tension between peoples. But to be disliked, persecuted, expulsion and antisemitism for 3000 years would have got any Rabbi questioning the 613 other commandments that failed to achieve the goal to make Jews likeable.

There are 613 commandments (essentially). None tells anyone to like ice cream. None commands us to stop and smell the roses. None says my name has to be Biff. Similarly, there is no command that tells anyone to be likable, left handed or politically conservative. This rabbi certainly doesn't question the 613 on the basis of some phantom notion of likability.

Now we know why the Antisemitism continues. Even you accept there isn't anything in the 613 commandments that tells the Jews to be 'likeable'. Antisemitism, 3000 years of Jewish persecution and expulsion isn't exactly a phantom notion, it is a historical fact. And the cause isn't a phantom notion either, Jews not being likeable is the cause for antisemitism.

Maybe being likeable is harder for the Jews than other things they are able to cope with like the examples you listed; None tells anyone to like ice cream. None commands us to stop and smell the roses. None says my name has to be Biff. Similarly, there is no command that tells anyone to be likable, left handed or politically conservative.

Going around like circumcised pricks isn't adding an iota of likability to you nationalism. Are you focusing on the wrong type of exposure?
Harikrish
Posts: 29,658
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10/31/2017 6:53:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/31/2017 6:08:49 PM, SingularityofLight wrote:
At 10/31/2017 5:57:56 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/31/2017 5:26:38 PM, SingularityofLight wrote:
At 10/31/2017 5:19:48 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/31/2017 4:49:51 PM, SingularityofLight wrote:
At 10/31/2017 4:41:54 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/31/2017 3:46:44 PM, rosends wrote:
At 10/31/2017 3:01:57 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/29/2017 11:54:38 AM, rosends wrote:
In Jewish thinking, there are what we call 613 commandments (the "Taryag mitzvot"). However, it is important to note that even in biblical/temple times, there was no expectation that every person observed every commandment. If you take even a cursory look at the list

http://www.jewfaq.org...

you will see that some are observed by the average person passively, some are easily done during the course of daily life, and some are for specialized times, places and/or people so they are simply not incumbent upon the average person.

It is also essential to understand that each of these 613 serves as a foundation for other "rules" which govern daily life. There are codes of law which are just as binding, and provide the detail about how to live, but which are not explicitly listed as divine commandment. So while the list of textual mitzvot says simply to sanctify the sabbath, we have an entire corpus of law about exactly HOW one does that. The oral law clarifies and explains the process and method by which one can follow the written law. The one without the other is useless.

So if someone says that the expectation was that every person "keep" all 613, that is inevitably in error.

There are a lot of dos and don'ts in the 613 commandments. But I could not find any commandment that tells Jews to be 'likeable'. With 3000 years of persecution, expulsion and antisemitism, one would think a commandment to be 'likeable' might have help Jews overcome the burden of 613 commandments that still left them undeserving of proper recognition throughout their history.

I don't mean to be disparaging. But would adding one more commandment to be likeable to the existing 613 be so difficult?

A few random responses. The first is that what you think of as being unlikable might not be the same as someone else's assessment. It is difficult to be "likable" to everyone equally, so a general law to be likable would be difficult to follow. Next is that there are many elements of Jewish law which instruct peaceful coexistence (even, to a degree fealty), kindness to all and an avoidance of behaviors which will create tension or conflict with all others. Next up is the idea that likability is not a function of religion and that the 63 commandments are not considered a burden. I am also not sure that it is reasonable to simplify years of oppression as being based in being unlikable. If that's how you see the world, then so be it. I don't think that that approach is the generally accepted one. Finally, one does not simply add a law to a divine canon for the sake of convenience.

Are you saying the divine canon gave the Jews 613 commandments except the one that would make them 'likeable'? It is not hard to figure that being likeable reduces tension between peoples. But to be disliked, persecuted, expulsion and antisemitism for 3000 years would have got any Rabbi questioning the 613 other commandments that failed to achieve the goal to make Jews likeable.

YHWH isn't likeable, why else would he promote racism through a chosen people. If YHWH isn't likeable why would he promote it in his chosen people?

But Christians love the God of the Bible. They even love the messiah whom the Jews rejected. But they stop when it comes to the Jewish people. Is it possible the Jews believe because they keep 613 commandments they don't have to be likeable? Their attitude of indifference and arrogance is why kosher candles are more popular than the people's fat that went into making it.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that most Christians "stop the love" when it comes to the Jewish people. Most are afraid of being cursed for not loving God's chosen people; why else was the nation of Isreal helped to form against all natural populations in the Middle East by the Christian U.S. and Britain.

Christians aren't afraid of Jews. They see them as Christ killers. In fact the position most Christian Churches hold is the Jewish covenant was broken and the Israel spoken in the NT is the Christian Gentiles.

You're talking pre-Hitler times when many Catholics fostered that abominable view of Jews. But the Holocaust was YHWH's idea to get the hardened Jewish population their own abominable state. YHWH has turned the Christian view to a very pro-Isreal stance today. There isn't a nation on the earth today that isn't harmed politically by the militancy of Israeli Zionism. I love the secular Jewish population of the world. They add a lot to the art and culture of society. I hate Zionism though.

If we don't learn from history we are doomed to repeat it. Do you still feel YHWH is behind the Jewish demise? 613 commandments and nothing in it that tells Jews to be 'likeable'. How long can the Jews ignore the cause of their isolation?
rosends
Posts: 478
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10/31/2017 6:56:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/31/2017 6:44:24 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/31/2017 6:15:38 PM, rosends wrote:
At 10/31/2017 4:41:54 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/31/2017 3:46:44 PM, rosends wrote:
At 10/31/2017 3:01:57 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/29/2017 11:54:38 AM, rosends wrote:
In Jewish thinking, there are what we call 613 commandments (the "Taryag mitzvot"). However, it is important to note that even in biblical/temple times, there was no expectation that every person observed every commandment. If you take even a cursory look at the list

http://www.jewfaq.org...

you will see that some are observed by the average person passively, some are easily done during the course of daily life, and some are for specialized times, places and/or people so they are simply not incumbent upon the average person.

It is also essential to understand that each of these 613 serves as a foundation for other "rules" which govern daily life. There are codes of law which are just as binding, and provide the detail about how to live, but which are not explicitly listed as divine commandment. So while the list of textual mitzvot says simply to sanctify the sabbath, we have an entire corpus of law about exactly HOW one does that. The oral law clarifies and explains the process and method by which one can follow the written law. The one without the other is useless.

So if someone says that the expectation was that every person "keep" all 613, that is inevitably in error.

There are a lot of dos and don'ts in the 613 commandments. But I could not find any commandment that tells Jews to be 'likeable'. With 3000 years of persecution, expulsion and antisemitism, one would think a commandment to be 'likeable' might have help Jews overcome the burden of 613 commandments that still left them undeserving of proper recognition throughout their history.

I don't mean to be disparaging. But would adding one more commandment to be likeable to the existing 613 be so difficult?

A few random responses. The first is that what you think of as being unlikable might not be the same as someone else's assessment. It is difficult to be "likable" to everyone equally, so a general law to be likable would be difficult to follow. Next is that there are many elements of Jewish law which instruct peaceful coexistence (even, to a degree fealty), kindness to all and an avoidance of behaviors which will create tension or conflict with all others. Next up is the idea that likability is not a function of religion and that the 63 commandments are not considered a burden. I am also not sure that it is reasonable to simplify years of oppression as being based in being unlikable. If that's how you see the world, then so be it. I don't think that that approach is the generally accepted one. Finally, one does not simply add a law to a divine canon for the sake of convenience.

Are you saying the divine canon gave the Jews 613 commandments except the one that would make them 'likeable'? It is not hard to figure that being likeable reduces tension between peoples. But to be disliked, persecuted, expulsion and antisemitism for 3000 years would have got any Rabbi questioning the 613 other commandments that failed to achieve the goal to make Jews likeable.

There are 613 commandments (essentially). None tells anyone to like ice cream. None commands us to stop and smell the roses. None says my name has to be Biff. Similarly, there is no command that tells anyone to be likable, left handed or politically conservative. This rabbi certainly doesn't question the 613 on the basis of some phantom notion of likability.

Now we know why the Antisemitism continues. Even you accept there isn't anything in the 613 commandments that tells the Jews to be 'likeable'. Antisemitism, 3000 years of Jewish persecution and expulsion isn't exactly a phantom notion, it is a historical fact. And the cause isn't a phantom notion either, Jews not being likeable is the cause for antisemitism.

Maybe being likeable is harder for the Jews than other things they are able to cope with like the examples you listed; None tells anyone to like ice cream. None commands us to stop and smell the roses. None says my name has to be Biff. Similarly, there is no command that tells anyone to be likable, left handed or politically conservative.

Going around like circumcised pricks isn't adding an iota of likability to you nationalism. Are you focusing on the wrong type of exposure?

So you must be the subject of intense persecution because you certainly aren't likable. I guess no one commanded you to be likable. The fact that your logic stinks is secondary to your unlikability. Or maybe you were commanded to, but you consistently sin by not following the command. I guess that's possible also. Thanks for staying on the subject of the thread. You truly added to the topic.
SingularityofLight
Posts: 1,915
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10/31/2017 7:19:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/31/2017 6:53:30 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/31/2017 6:08:49 PM, SingularityofLight wrote:
At 10/31/2017 5:57:56 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/31/2017 5:26:38 PM, SingularityofLight wrote:
At 10/31/2017 5:19:48 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/31/2017 4:49:51 PM, SingularityofLight wrote:
At 10/31/2017 4:41:54 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/31/2017 3:46:44 PM, rosends wrote:
At 10/31/2017 3:01:57 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/29/2017 11:54:38 AM, rosends wrote:
In Jewish thinking, there are what we call 613 commandments (the "Taryag mitzvot"). However, it is important to note that even in biblical/temple times, there was no expectation that every person observed every commandment. If you take even a cursory look at the list

http://www.jewfaq.org...

you will see that some are observed by the average person passively, some are easily done during the course of daily life, and some are for specialized times, places and/or people so they are simply not incumbent upon the average person.

It is also essential to understand that each of these 613 serves as a foundation for other "rules" which govern daily life. There are codes of law which are just as binding, and provide the detail about how to live, but which are not explicitly listed as divine commandment. So while the list of textual mitzvot says simply to sanctify the sabbath, we have an entire corpus of law about exactly HOW one does that. The oral law clarifies and explains the process and method by which one can follow the written law. The one without the other is useless.

So if someone says that the expectation was that every person "keep" all 613, that is inevitably in error.

There are a lot of dos and don'ts in the 613 commandments. But I could not find any commandment that tells Jews to be 'likeable'. With 3000 years of persecution, expulsion and antisemitism, one would think a commandment to be 'likeable' might have help Jews overcome the burden of 613 commandments that still left them undeserving of proper recognition throughout their history.

I don't mean to be disparaging. But would adding one more commandment to be likeable to the existing 613 be so difficult?

A few random responses. The first is that what you think of as being unlikable might not be the same as someone else's assessment. It is difficult to be "likable" to everyone equally, so a general law to be likable would be difficult to follow. Next is that there are many elements of Jewish law which instruct peaceful coexistence (even, to a degree fealty), kindness to all and an avoidance of behaviors which will create tension or conflict with all others. Next up is the idea that likability is not a function of religion and that the 63 commandments are not considered a burden. I am also not sure that it is reasonable to simplify years of oppression as being based in being unlikable. If that's how you see the world, then so be it. I don't think that that approach is the generally accepted one. Finally, one does not simply add a law to a divine canon for the sake of convenience.

Are you saying the divine canon gave the Jews 613 commandments except the one that would make them 'likeable'? It is not hard to figure that being likeable reduces tension between peoples. But to be disliked, persecuted, expulsion and antisemitism for 3000 years would have got any Rabbi questioning the 613 other commandments that failed to achieve the goal to make Jews likeable.

YHWH isn't likeable, why else would he promote racism through a chosen people. If YHWH isn't likeable why would he promote it in his chosen people?

But Christians love the God of the Bible. They even love the messiah whom the Jews rejected. But they stop when it comes to the Jewish people. Is it possible the Jews believe because they keep 613 commandments they don't have to be likeable? Their attitude of indifference and arrogance is why kosher candles are more popular than the people's fat that went into making it.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that most Christians "stop the love" when it comes to the Jewish people. Most are afraid of being cursed for not loving God's chosen people; why else was the nation of Isreal helped to form against all natural populations in the Middle East by the Christian U.S. and Britain.

Christians aren't afraid of Jews. They see them as Christ killers. In fact the position most Christian Churches hold is the Jewish covenant was broken and the Israel spoken in the NT is the Christian Gentiles.

You're talking pre-Hitler times when many Catholics fostered that abominable view of Jews. But the Holocaust was YHWH's idea to get the hardened Jewish population their own abominable state. YHWH has turned the Christian view to a very pro-Isreal stance today. There isn't a nation on the earth today that isn't harmed politically by the militancy of Israeli Zionism. I love the secular Jewish population of the world. They add a lot to the art and culture of society. I hate Zionism though.

If we don't learn from history we are doomed to repeat it. Do you still feel YHWH is behind the Jewish demise? 613 commandments and nothing in it that tells Jews to be 'likeable'. How long can the Jews ignore the cause of their isolation?

There is nothing unlikable about real Jewish culture, Harikrish. It is militant Zionism that I have a problem with. The world needs more Jewish culture, if you ask me.
Harikrish
Posts: 29,658
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10/31/2017 7:20:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/31/2017 6:56:30 PM, rosends wrote:
At 10/31/2017 6:44:24 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/31/2017 6:15:38 PM, rosends wrote:
At 10/31/2017 4:41:54 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/31/2017 3:46:44 PM, rosends wrote:
At 10/31/2017 3:01:57 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/29/2017 11:54:38 AM, rosends wrote:
In Jewish thinking, there are what we call 613 commandments (the "Taryag mitzvot"). However, it is important to note that even in biblical/temple times, there was no expectation that every person observed every commandment. If you take even a cursory look at the list

http://www.jewfaq.org...

you will see that some are observed by the average person passively, some are easily done during the course of daily life, and some are for specialized times, places and/or people so they are simply not incumbent upon the average person.

It is also essential to understand that each of these 613 serves as a foundation for other "rules" which govern daily life. There are codes of law which are just as binding, and provide the detail about how to live, but which are not explicitly listed as divine commandment. So while the list of textual mitzvot says simply to sanctify the sabbath, we have an entire corpus of law about exactly HOW one does that. The oral law clarifies and explains the process and method by which one can follow the written law. The one without the other is useless.

So if someone says that the expectation was that every person "keep" all 613, that is inevitably in error.

There are a lot of dos and don'ts in the 613 commandments. But I could not find any commandment that tells Jews to be 'likeable'. With 3000 years of persecution, expulsion and antisemitism, one would think a commandment to be 'likeable' might have help Jews overcome the burden of 613 commandments that still left them undeserving of proper recognition throughout their history.

I don't mean to be disparaging. But would adding one more commandment to be likeable to the existing 613 be so difficult?

A few random responses. The first is that what you think of as being unlikable might not be the same as someone else's assessment. It is difficult to be "likable" to everyone equally, so a general law to be likable would be difficult to follow. Next is that there are many elements of Jewish law which instruct peaceful coexistence (even, to a degree fealty), kindness to all and an avoidance of behaviors which will create tension or conflict with all others. Next up is the idea that likability is not a function of religion and that the 63 commandments are not considered a burden. I am also not sure that it is reasonable to simplify years of oppression as being based in being unlikable. If that's how you see the world, then so be it. I don't think that that approach is the generally accepted one. Finally, one does not simply add a law to a divine canon for the sake of convenience.

Are you saying the divine canon gave the Jews 613 commandments except the one that would make them 'likeable'? It is not hard to figure that being likeable reduces tension between peoples. But to be disliked, persecuted, expulsion and antisemitism for 3000 years would have got any Rabbi questioning the 613 other commandments that failed to achieve the goal to make Jews likeable.

There are 613 commandments (essentially). None tells anyone to like ice cream. None commands us to stop and smell the roses. None says my name has to be Biff. Similarly, there is no command that tells anyone to be likable, left handed or politically conservative. This rabbi certainly doesn't question the 613 on the basis of some phantom notion of likability.

Now we know why the Antisemitism continues. Even you accept there isn't anything in the 613 commandments that tells the Jews to be 'likeable'. Antisemitism, 3000 years of Jewish persecution and expulsion isn't exactly a phantom notion, it is a historical fact. And the cause isn't a phantom notion either, Jews not being likeable is the cause for antisemitism.

Maybe being likeable is harder for the Jews than other things they are able to cope with like the examples you listed; None tells anyone to like ice cream. None commands us to stop and smell the roses. None says my name has to be Biff. Similarly, there is no command that tells anyone to be likable, left handed or politically conservative.

Going around like circumcised pricks isn't adding an iota of likability to you nationalism. Are you focusing on the wrong type of exposure?

So you must be the subject of intense persecution because you certainly aren't likable. I guess no one commanded you to be likable. The fact that your logic stinks is secondary to your unlikability. Or maybe you were commanded to, but you consistently sin by not following the command. I guess that's possible also. Thanks for staying on the subject of the thread. You truly added to the topic.

You have just proven my point. Being unlikable brings out strong resentment and reaction from others. Even the most spiritual member on DDO can make a circumcised prick hate his own shortcoming. The Jews have made being unlikeable an art and antisemitism a science. There isn't anything in the 613 commandments that tells the Jews to be 'likeable'. How deliberate was this omission?

How about love thy neighbour and be likeable yourself? You still get to keep the 613 commandment, but you instantly become likeable as well.....There was no need for your rude outburst.
Harikrish
Posts: 29,658
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10/31/2017 7:55:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/31/2017 7:19:35 PM, SingularityofLight wrote:
At 10/31/2017 6:53:30 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/31/2017 6:08:49 PM, SingularityofLight wrote:
At 10/31/2017 5:57:56 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/31/2017 5:26:38 PM, SingularityofLight wrote:
At 10/31/2017 5:19:48 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/31/2017 4:49:51 PM, SingularityofLight wrote:
At 10/31/2017 4:41:54 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/31/2017 3:46:44 PM, rosends wrote:
At 10/31/2017 3:01:57 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/29/2017 11:54:38 AM, rosends wrote:
In Jewish thinking, there are what we call 613 commandments (the "Taryag mitzvot"). However, it is important to note that even in biblical/temple times, there was no expectation that every person observed every commandment. If you take even a cursory look at the list

http://www.jewfaq.org...

you will see that some are observed by the average person passively, some are easily done during the course of daily life, and some are for specialized times, places and/or people so they are simply not incumbent upon the average person.

It is also essential to understand that each of these 613 serves as a foundation for other "rules" which govern daily life. There are codes of law which are just as binding, and provide the detail about how to live, but which are not explicitly listed as divine commandment. So while the list of textual mitzvot says simply to sanctify the sabbath, we have an entire corpus of law about exactly HOW one does that. The oral law clarifies and explains the process and method by which one can follow the written law. The one without the other is useless.

So if someone says that the expectation was that every person "keep" all 613, that is inevitably in error.

There are a lot of dos and don'ts in the 613 commandments. But I could not find any commandment that tells Jews to be 'likeable'. With 3000 years of persecution, expulsion and antisemitism, one would think a commandment to be 'likeable' might have help Jews overcome the burden of 613 commandments that still left them undeserving of proper recognition throughout their history.

I don't mean to be disparaging. But would adding one more commandment to be likeable to the existing 613 be so difficult?

A few random responses. The first is that what you think of as being unlikable might not be the same as someone else's assessment. It is difficult to be "likable" to everyone equally, so a general law to be likable would be difficult to follow. Next is that there are many elements of Jewish law which instruct peaceful coexistence (even, to a degree fealty), kindness to all and an avoidance of behaviors which will create tension or conflict with all others. Next up is the idea that likability is not a function of religion and that the 63 commandments are not considered a burden. I am also not sure that it is reasonable to simplify years of oppression as being based in being unlikable. If that's how you see the world, then so be it. I don't think that that approach is the generally accepted one. Finally, one does not simply add a law to a divine canon for the sake of convenience.

Are you saying the divine canon gave the Jews 613 commandments except the one that would make them 'likeable'? It is not hard to figure that being likeable reduces tension between peoples. But to be disliked, persecuted, expulsion and antisemitism for 3000 years would have got any Rabbi questioning the 613 other commandments that failed to achieve the goal to make Jews likeable.

YHWH isn't likeable, why else would he promote racism through a chosen people. If YHWH isn't likeable why would he promote it in his chosen people?

But Christians love the God of the Bible. They even love the messiah whom the Jews rejected. But they stop when it comes to the Jewish people. Is it possible the Jews believe because they keep 613 commandments they don't have to be likeable? Their attitude of indifference and arrogance is why kosher candles are more popular than the people's fat that went into making it.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that most Christians "stop the love" when it comes to the Jewish people. Most are afraid of being cursed for not loving God's chosen people; why else was the nation of Isreal helped to form against all natural populations in the Middle East by the Christian U.S. and Britain.

Christians aren't afraid of Jews. They see them as Christ killers. In fact the position most Christian Churches hold is the Jewish covenant was broken and the Israel spoken in the NT is the Christian Gentiles.

You're talking pre-Hitler times when many Catholics fostered that abominable view of Jews. But the Holocaust was YHWH's idea to get the hardened Jewish population their own abominable state. YHWH has turned the Christian view to a very pro-Isreal stance today. There isn't a nation on the earth today that isn't harmed politically by the militancy of Israeli Zionism. I love the secular Jewish population of the world. They add a lot to the art and culture of society. I hate Zionism though.

If we don't learn from history we are doomed to repeat it. Do you still feel YHWH is behind the Jewish demise? 613 commandments and nothing in it that tells Jews to be 'likeable'. How long can the Jews ignore the cause of their isolation?

There is nothing unlikable about real Jewish culture, Harikrish. It is militant Zionism that I have a problem with. The world needs more Jewish culture, if you ask me.

The Jews are the only people that have been evicted from their country twice. The Jews don't have roots in a culture, history or true nationalism because they were a backward tribal group. What we read about the Jews is really an attempt to invent the Jewish people with literary embellishment and reconstructive history, wrapping it in religious aspirations as a privileged people. A lot of their religious beliefs and culture were shaped by the more advanced neighbours namely the Egyptians.

The Invention of the Jewish People by Shlomo Sand.
https://www.amazon.ca...
SingularityofLight
Posts: 1,915
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10/31/2017 7:59:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/31/2017 7:55:38 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/31/2017 7:19:35 PM, SingularityofLight wrote:
At 10/31/2017 6:53:30 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/31/2017 6:08:49 PM, SingularityofLight wrote:
At 10/31/2017 5:57:56 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/31/2017 5:26:38 PM, SingularityofLight wrote:
At 10/31/2017 5:19:48 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/31/2017 4:49:51 PM, SingularityofLight wrote:
At 10/31/2017 4:41:54 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/31/2017 3:46:44 PM, rosends wrote:
At 10/31/2017 3:01:57 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/29/2017 11:54:38 AM, rosends wrote:
In Jewish thinking, there are what we call 613 commandments (the "Taryag mitzvot"). However, it is important to note that even in biblical/temple times, there was no expectation that every person observed every commandment. If you take even a cursory look at the list

http://www.jewfaq.org...

you will see that some are observed by the average person passively, some are easily done during the course of daily life, and some are for specialized times, places and/or people so they are simply not incumbent upon the average person.

It is also essential to understand that each of these 613 serves as a foundation for other "rules" which govern daily life. There are codes of law which are just as binding, and provide the detail about how to live, but which are not explicitly listed as divine commandment. So while the list of textual mitzvot says simply to sanctify the sabbath, we have an entire corpus of law about exactly HOW one does that. The oral law clarifies and explains the process and method by which one can follow the written law. The one without the other is useless.

So if someone says that the expectation was that every person "keep" all 613, that is inevitably in error.

There are a lot of dos and don'ts in the 613 commandments. But I could not find any commandment that tells Jews to be 'likeable'. With 3000 years of persecution, expulsion and antisemitism, one would think a commandment to be 'likeable' might have help Jews overcome the burden of 613 commandments that still left them undeserving of proper recognition throughout their history.

I don't mean to be disparaging. But would adding one more commandment to be likeable to the existing 613 be so difficult?

A few random responses. The first is that what you think of as being unlikable might not be the same as someone else's assessment. It is difficult to be "likable" to everyone equally, so a general law to be likable would be difficult to follow. Next is that there are many elements of Jewish law which instruct peaceful coexistence (even, to a degree fealty), kindness to all and an avoidance of behaviors which will create tension or conflict with all others. Next up is the idea that likability is not a function of religion and that the 63 commandments are not considered a burden. I am also not sure that it is reasonable to simplify years of oppression as being based in being unlikable. If that's how you see the world, then so be it. I don't think that that approach is the generally accepted one. Finally, one does not simply add a law to a divine canon for the sake of convenience.

Are you saying the divine canon gave the Jews 613 commandments except the one that would make them 'likeable'? It is not hard to figure that being likeable reduces tension between peoples. But to be disliked, persecuted, expulsion and antisemitism for 3000 years would have got any Rabbi questioning the 613 other commandments that failed to achieve the goal to make Jews likeable.

YHWH isn't likeable, why else would he promote racism through a chosen people. If YHWH isn't likeable why would he promote it in his chosen people?

But Christians love the God of the Bible. They even love the messiah whom the Jews rejected. But they stop when it comes to the Jewish people. Is it possible the Jews believe because they keep 613 commandments they don't have to be likeable? Their attitude of indifference and arrogance is why kosher candles are more popular than the people's fat that went into making it.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that most Christians "stop the love" when it comes to the Jewish people. Most are afraid of being cursed for not loving God's chosen people; why else was the nation of Isreal helped to form against all natural populations in the Middle East by the Christian U.S. and Britain.

Christians aren't afraid of Jews. They see them as Christ killers. In fact the position most Christian Churches hold is the Jewish covenant was broken and the Israel spoken in the NT is the Christian Gentiles.

You're talking pre-Hitler times when many Catholics fostered that abominable view of Jews. But the Holocaust was YHWH's idea to get the hardened Jewish population their own abominable state. YHWH has turned the Christian view to a very pro-Isreal stance today. There isn't a nation on the earth today that isn't harmed politically by the militancy of Israeli Zionism. I love the secular Jewish population of the world. They add a lot to the art and culture of society. I hate Zionism though.

If we don't learn from history we are doomed to repeat it. Do you still feel YHWH is behind the Jewish demise? 613 commandments and nothing in it that tells Jews to be 'likeable'. How long can the Jews ignore the cause of their isolation?

There is nothing unlikable about real Jewish culture, Harikrish. It is militant Zionism that I have a problem with. The world needs more Jewish culture, if you ask me.

The Jews are the only people that have been evicted from their country twice. The Jews don't have roots in a culture, history or true nationalism because they were a backward tribal group. What we read about the Jews is really an attempt to invent the Jewish people with literary embellishment and reconstructive history, wrapping it in religious aspirations as a privileged people. A lot of their religious beliefs and culture were shaped by the more advanced neighbours namely the Egyptians.

The Invention of the Jewish People by Shlomo Sand.
https://www.amazon.ca...

Yes, and a lot of good things they brought with them from Egypt to give to the world through history. Stop ragging on Jews, they are not the problem. The problem are militant spiritual hierarchies that have created an abomination with the current Zionism in Isreal. Besides Zionism in Isreal, Jewish culture world wide does a lot of good for the world.
12_13
Posts: 2,575
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10/31/2017 8:35:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/30/2017 11:27:49 PM, rosends wrote:
I'm not sure why you are so fixated on the word "covenant." There were already laws (including all sorts detailed in chapter 34 directly before those verses) and there would be even more listed textually. Other covenants were already in place, and more would be made. In fact, Moses, 10 chapters earlier had a "book of the covenant" in which he wrote all sorts of laws that the people agreed to establishing a covenant which included much ore than just 10 commandments. The point is, the laws are extensive and binding.

Reason is that the others than words of the covenant seem to be more like guidelines, not actual rules.

But this doesn"t mean that they are obsolete, or that I would revoke them. It is just that when God made the covenant, there was certain terms in it. If people keep them, the get the blessings and of people reject them, there will not be the blessings. It seems to me that the other rules don"t have the same terms, and that is why I think the reason to abbey them, should be different.
rosends
Posts: 478
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10/31/2017 8:36:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/31/2017 7:20:51 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/31/2017 6:56:30 PM, rosends wrote:
At 10/31/2017 6:44:24 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/31/2017 6:15:38 PM, rosends wrote:
At 10/31/2017 4:41:54 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/31/2017 3:46:44 PM, rosends wrote:
At 10/31/2017 3:01:57 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/29/2017 11:54:38 AM, rosends wrote:
In Jewish thinking, there are what we call 613 commandments (the "Taryag mitzvot"). However, it is important to note that even in biblical/temple times, there was no expectation that every person observed every commandment. If you take even a cursory look at the list

http://www.jewfaq.org...

you will see that some are observed by the average person passively, some are easily done during the course of daily life, and some are for specialized times, places and/or people so they are simply not incumbent upon the average person.

It is also essential to understand that each of these 613 serves as a foundation for other "rules" which govern daily life. There are codes of law which are just as binding, and provide the detail about how to live, but which are not explicitly listed as divine commandment. So while the list of textual mitzvot says simply to sanctify the sabbath, we have an entire corpus of law about exactly HOW one does that. The oral law clarifies and explains the process and method by which one can follow the written law. The one without the other is useless.

So if someone says that the expectation was that every person "keep" all 613, that is inevitably in error.

There are a lot of dos and don'ts in the 613 commandments. But I could not find any commandment that tells Jews to be 'likeable'. With 3000 years of persecution, expulsion and antisemitism, one would think a commandment to be 'likeable' might have help Jews overcome the burden of 613 commandments that still left them undeserving of proper recognition throughout their history.

I don't mean to be disparaging. But would adding one more commandment to be likeable to the existing 613 be so difficult?

A few random responses. The first is that what you think of as being unlikable might not be the same as someone else's assessment. It is difficult to be "likable" to everyone equally, so a general law to be likable would be difficult to follow. Next is that there are many elements of Jewish law which instruct peaceful coexistence (even, to a degree fealty), kindness to all and an avoidance of behaviors which will create tension or conflict with all others. Next up is the idea that likability is not a function of religion and that the 63 commandments are not considered a burden. I am also not sure that it is reasonable to simplify years of oppression as being based in being unlikable. If that's how you see the world, then so be it. I don't think that that approach is the generally accepted one. Finally, one does not simply add a law to a divine canon for the sake of convenience.

Are you saying the divine canon gave the Jews 613 commandments except the one that would make them 'likeable'? It is not hard to figure that being likeable reduces tension between peoples. But to be disliked, persecuted, expulsion and antisemitism for 3000 years would have got any Rabbi questioning the 613 other commandments that failed to achieve the goal to make Jews likeable.

There are 613 commandments (essentially). None tells anyone to like ice cream. None commands us to stop and smell the roses. None says my name has to be Biff. Similarly, there is no command that tells anyone to be likable, left handed or politically conservative. This rabbi certainly doesn't question the 613 on the basis of some phantom notion of likability.

Now we know why the Antisemitism continues. Even you accept there isn't anything in the 613 commandments that tells the Jews to be 'likeable'. Antisemitism, 3000 years of Jewish persecution and expulsion isn't exactly a phantom notion, it is a historical fact. And the cause isn't a phantom notion either, Jews not being likeable is the cause for antisemitism.

Maybe being likeable is harder for the Jews than other things they are able to cope with like the examples you listed; None tells anyone to like ice cream. None commands us to stop and smell the roses. None says my name has to be Biff. Similarly, there is no command that tells anyone to be likable, left handed or politically conservative.

Going around like circumcised pricks isn't adding an iota of likability to you nationalism. Are you focusing on the wrong type of exposure?

So you must be the subject of intense persecution because you certainly aren't likable. I guess no one commanded you to be likable. The fact that your logic stinks is secondary to your unlikability. Or maybe you were commanded to, but you consistently sin by not following the command. I guess that's possible also. Thanks for staying on the subject of the thread. You truly added to the topic.

You have just proven my point. Being unlikable brings out strong resentment and reaction from others. Even the most spiritual member on DDO can make a circumcised prick hate his own shortcoming. The Jews have made being unlikeable an art and antisemitism a science. There isn't anything in the 613 commandments that tells the Jews to be 'likeable'. How deliberate was this omission?

How about love thy neighbour and be likeable yourself? You still get to keep the 613 commandment, but you instantly become likeable as well.....There was no need for your rude outburst.

What rude outburst? I was just pointing out how unlikable you are and how you bring out resentment in other people, clearly proving that you either have no commandment to be likable or you are violating such a commandment. Clearly in your moral/theological code you have no imperative to be respectful, logical, reasonable or remotely likable. That was probably a deliberate omission on the part of whoever tried to impart some code on you and it explains the general reaction to your contributions on this board. One wonders why you don't try to be nicer instead of calling names and hijacking threads.
rosends
Posts: 478
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10/31/2017 8:40:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/31/2017 8:35:46 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 10/30/2017 11:27:49 PM, rosends wrote:
I'm not sure why you are so fixated on the word "covenant." There were already laws (including all sorts detailed in chapter 34 directly before those verses) and there would be even more listed textually. Other covenants were already in place, and more would be made. In fact, Moses, 10 chapters earlier had a "book of the covenant" in which he wrote all sorts of laws that the people agreed to establishing a covenant which included much ore than just 10 commandments. The point is, the laws are extensive and binding.

Reason is that the others than words of the covenant seem to be more like guidelines, not actual rules.
Except that the text uses the Hebrew word for "commandment" plus other words which indicate laws (chukim, mishpatim, edot) when referring to lots of laws, and others are worded in the imperative, making them demands and not suggestions.

But this doesn"t mean that they are obsolete, or that I would revoke them. It is just that when God made the covenant, there was certain terms in it. If people keep them, the get the blessings and of people reject them, there will not be the blessings. It seems to me that the other rules don"t have the same terms, and that is why I think the reason to abbey them, should be different.

Then you should look at the words in chapter 24 which were written in the book fo the covenant and obey them as well.
Harikrish
Posts: 29,658
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10/31/2017 9:45:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/31/2017 8:36:45 PM, rosends wrote:
At 10/31/2017 7:20:51 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/31/2017 6:56:30 PM, rosends wrote:
At 10/31/2017 6:44:24 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/31/2017 6:15:38 PM, rosends wrote:
At 10/31/2017 4:41:54 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/31/2017 3:46:44 PM, rosends wrote:
At 10/31/2017 3:01:57 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/29/2017 11:54:38 AM, rosends wrote:
In Jewish thinking, there are what we call 613 commandments (the "Taryag mitzvot"). However, it is important to note that even in biblical/temple times, there was no expectation that every person observed every commandment. If you take even a cursory look at the list

http://www.jewfaq.org...

you will see that some are observed by the average person passively, some are easily done during the course of daily life, and some are for specialized times, places and/or people so they are simply not incumbent upon the average person.

It is also essential to understand that each of these 613 serves as a foundation for other "rules" which govern daily life. There are codes of law which are just as binding, and provide the detail about how to live, but which are not explicitly listed as divine commandment. So while the list of textual mitzvot says simply to sanctify the sabbath, we have an entire corpus of law about exactly HOW one does that. The oral law clarifies and explains the process and method by which one can follow the written law. The one without the other is useless.

So if someone says that the expectation was that every person "keep" all 613, that is inevitably in error.

There are a lot of dos and don'ts in the 613 commandments. But I could not find any commandment that tells Jews to be 'likeable'. With 3000 years of persecution, expulsion and antisemitism, one would think a commandment to be 'likeable' might have help Jews overcome the burden of 613 commandments that still left them undeserving of proper recognition throughout their history.

I don't mean to be disparaging. But would adding one more commandment to be likeable to the existing 613 be so difficult?

A few random responses. The first is that what you think of as being unlikable might not be the same as someone else's assessment. It is difficult to be "likable" to everyone equally, so a general law to be likable would be difficult to follow. Next is that there are many elements of Jewish law which instruct peaceful coexistence (even, to a degree fealty), kindness to all and an avoidance of behaviors which will create tension or conflict with all others. Next up is the idea that likability is not a function of religion and that the 63 commandments are not considered a burden. I am also not sure that it is reasonable to simplify years of oppression as being based in being unlikable. If that's how you see the world, then so be it. I don't think that that approach is the generally accepted one. Finally, one does not simply add a law to a divine canon for the sake of convenience.

Are you saying the divine canon gave the Jews 613 commandments except the one that would make them 'likeable'? It is not hard to figure that being likeable reduces tension between peoples. But to be disliked, persecuted, expulsion and antisemitism for 3000 years would have got any Rabbi questioning the 613 other commandments that failed to achieve the goal to make Jews likeable.

There are 613 commandments (essentially). None tells anyone to like ice cream. None commands us to stop and smell the roses. None says my name has to be Biff. Similarly, there is no command that tells anyone to be likable, left handed or politically conservative. This rabbi certainly doesn't question the 613 on the basis of some phantom notion of likability.

Now we know why the Antisemitism continues. Even you accept there isn't anything in the 613 commandments that tells the Jews to be 'likeable'. Antisemitism, 3000 years of Jewish persecution and expulsion isn't exactly a phantom notion, it is a historical fact. And the cause isn't a phantom notion either, Jews not being likeable is the cause for antisemitism.

Maybe being likeable is harder for the Jews than other things they are able to cope with like the examples you listed; None tells anyone to like ice cream. None commands us to stop and smell the roses. None says my name has to be Biff. Similarly, there is no command that tells anyone to be likable, left handed or politically conservative.

Going around like circumcised pricks isn't adding an iota of likability to you nationalism. Are you focusing on the wrong type of exposure?

So you must be the subject of intense persecution because you certainly aren't likable. I guess no one commanded you to be likable. The fact that your logic stinks is secondary to your unlikability. Or maybe you were commanded to, but you consistently sin by not following the command. I guess that's possible also. Thanks for staying on the subject of the thread. You truly added to the topic.

You have just proven my point. Being unlikable brings out strong resentment and reaction from others. Even the most spiritual member on DDO can make a circumcised prick hate his own shortcoming. The Jews have made being unlikeable an art and antisemitism a science. There isn't anything in the 613 commandments that tells the Jews to be 'likeable'. How deliberate was this omission?

How about love thy neighbour and be likeable yourself? You still get to keep the 613 commandment, but you instantly become likeable as well.....There was no need for your rude outburst.

What rude outburst? I was just pointing out how unlikable you are and how you bring out resentment in other people, clearly proving that you either have no commandment to be likable or you are violating such a commandment. Clearly in your moral/theological code you have no imperative to be respectful, logical, reasonable or remotely likable. That was probably a deliberate omission on the part of whoever tried to impart some code on you and it explains the general reaction to your contributions on this board. One wonders why you don't try to be nicer instead of calling names and hijacking threads.

How about love thy neighbour and be likeable yourself? Who said the old commandments couldn't be improved? I just did!!!

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